Episode Transcript
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You were listening to bb revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executive
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stay on the cutting edge of sales
and marketing in their industry. Let's get
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into the show. Hi, welcome
to be to be a revenue acceleration.
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My name is Aleniam, with you
and then here today with Jack Maldac Co,
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founder of Oyster. How Are you
today, Jack? Fantastic. Ray.
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A pleasure to be with you here
today. Thank you so much for
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the invitation. What were you basing
you? Are you in any California?
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I am. I am in California, but not in the sunniest part.
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Alas, I am in San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, so, okay,
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good, good, why still?
Still probably better on London. So
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why not? So today would be
talking about I ring talent remotely, but
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before we get into the conversation,
would you mind just giving a quick background
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as to who you are, while
you come from, and also must importantly
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explain was the ADB and Oyster and
and what Oist does? Fantastic. So
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I'm I'm Jack Mardak, CO founder
of Oyster. I'm originally from New York.
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I had a first career in banking. I moved to the bay area
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in the late s to take part
in the bubble, the bubble and the
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growth of the first growth of the
Internet business, and have been very lucky
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to get to work at some amazing
companies. I was the first head of
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marketing at event bright to first seat
of growth at at Pres and have have
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have had a good career in in
marketing so far. Tony and I met
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at next Mo, a company that, if he found it in that exited
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to vantage in two thousand and sixteen, and we were we were keen to
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work together again on something that we
could really put all of ourselves into,
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and the idea behind oyster comes from
the prepandemic inspirational vision of a world in
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which, through remote working, people
are able to have a great career wherever
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they live. The the inspirational picture
for us is that talented people, wherever
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they are in the world, should
should not be wasted, should have the
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chance to see their full potential realized. And so we began to work on
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this software platform that, from our
perspective, was much needed. This is
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the middle of two thousand and nineteen, so we were looking ahead to a
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future that, that would say,
already on the way the writing was already
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on the wall about remote working.
There were certainly a number of companies,
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some big ones as you know,
automatic get lab etc. That were saying
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this is amazing, and we were
very attracted to that as a way to
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operate our own company. And it
was also the the Lens through which we
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came to appreciate the need for a
solution to the employments, the easy,
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convenient employment of people around the world, as if, as if that the
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fact that I'm a UK company and
that wants to hire a German person,
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as if that wasn't a complication at
all. So that was the vision and
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so oyster is exactly that. Oyster
is the HRIS system for globally distributed companies.
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We make it easy for growing company
to tap the global talent pull and
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to hire, pay and give great
benefits to their people wherever they are in
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the world. That sounds wonderful.
I love the mission. Thank you so
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much for that, Jack. So
let's let's peak about the pond the beginning.
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I'm led to believe that it's almost
over, having at least in the
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news people are a bit more obtimistic, but let's see. But of course
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I think what a lot of business
of Odo stood last year. So I'm
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talking about two thousand and twenty.
Is that you need to be that invisible
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company. You need to be you
need to be able to have people walking
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from home. It to have clouds, you need to have access to systems,
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need to have that flexibility of walking
from mom and with that, to
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be honest with you, I was
not a massive fun of that. I
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always so that I think the people
in the office was was quite good.
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I like to come into the office
and feel the atmosphere. That gives me
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an idea of how well we will
be doing and all that sort of great
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stuff. I like to I like
to feel the the the atmosphere of the
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office. However, yeah, we
learn last year that it's actually quite fine
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to get people walking from a you've
have got the right to, in fact,
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twenty five percode of all team where
I'm not more productive working from them.
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So now I am really open to
recruit remotely. But what I like
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tolostone's you know from your prospective what
was the busy team, as well as
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the gettive impact of Irday ring process
going fully viotualness to right. So before
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we get to that, particular question. I think it's useful to provide some
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context. And so the best way
to to understand the pandemic is is as
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a catalyst event, right, not
as a not as a persisting situation.
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But I think the situation of the
pandemic will pass, but will be left
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with the catalytic effects, right.
And and those catalytic effects apply to the
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tre ongoing transformation of knowledge work,
right. So this was this was already
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something that was involving. So if
you think of the previous era of work
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as the office era, right,
it was in the it was in the
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office era. The office era is
followed from the factory era, and the
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office era was really about bringing people
together for the first time to work on
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information problems. And in that regard
the office context was absolutely fantastic. You
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know, knowledge work was born in
the office and we did amazing things as
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as a human species together in this
context of doing knowledge work in close proximity
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to each other or where we could
have we could share information, have conversation
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and advance on these complicated problems of
information. And so we have to credit
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the Office for the birth of knowledge
work. But perhaps thirty or forty years
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ago the advent of software first began
to radically transform how people do knowledge work.
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Fast forward a bit to the advent
of the Internet and then soon after
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that, from a comparative time standpoint, the advent of broadband and the end
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mobility and the Internet, of course, really began to accelerate the transformation of
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knowledge work and to begin to challenge
some of the assumptions that we've had about
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how knowledge work needs to happen for
a very long time. So this was
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already happening. Right. You have
to see that this was already under way.
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More people were already working from home, whether full time or part time,
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enabled by a combination of things,
some some technological and some new behavioral
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shifts, where it had become more
normal for people to work in this way.
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And so the pandemic was not just
about the acceleration of remote working.
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The pandemic has accelerated the transformation of
knowledge work, of which one part is
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the acceleration of remote working, and
the best way to understand that is the
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removal of the location dependency on how
we do knowledge work. This was already
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something that was being challenged by software
slack zoom. We already had these tools
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broadband, and so this this was
already being challenged. The pandemic said,
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boom, it's a it's so the
best way to understand it is it's a
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dramatic acceleration and catalyst of the transformation
of knowledge work that was already underway.
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Right. So, in that context, companies that are that we're doing knowledge
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work have experienced a range of things. In some cases they've been surprised by
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how well they've adapted. They've been
surprised by the readiness of the tools that
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we were already using, like you
know slack, who're already using it,
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zoom. You're already using these things, but suddenly now it's sort of a
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greater dependency and and the and these
organizations of all sizes of realized, as
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you said, is you have realized
that this is this as a lot of
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positives. In fact, we can
work very well and and and do I
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have have an amazing outcome, which
is which is an increase in productivity and
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an increase in work life balance and
general well health and and happiness. Right.
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So there are there are great,
great reasons that have become apparent to
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all kinds of companies to continue to
work in this way. Some companies have
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declared that they will be remote forever, that they're letting go of the offices
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rates. Other companies are saying,
well, we're going to scale back.
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You know, we're going to.
We're going to cut a million square feet
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in San Francisco. When we're going
to we're going to apply that money in
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other ways that make more sense.
Right and and you also have many startups
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that are coming into existence as fully
distributed companies, but for the very first
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time they see that it's not a
negative. You can still hire people,
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you can still raise money on zoom, as we did during during a pandemic.
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And so you're going to have a
reshuffling in the amount of distributed work
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amongst existing companies, all the way
from a little bit more to a hundred
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percent. And then you're going to
have you're going to have many, many,
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many more companies that are coming into
existence as fully distributed companies. And
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so the prospects for this is that, yes, we're this, this is
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the future. It is that it's
not there. It's not just a reaction
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to the pandemic. It's not just
the acceleration of remote work. It is
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companies are making these adaptations out in
pursuit of better ways of work, better
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ways of doing knowledge work. And
so now we come to the talent acquisition
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question. So one of the one
of the attractors, one of the reasons
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that the companies are so interested in
this new way of working is that they
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do gain the the access to people
that are beyond what might have been a
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small radius surrounding an HQ in London
or in San Francisco. And so that's
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very exciting for multiple reasons. It's
exciting for economic reasons and so far as
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one of the undesirable effects of the
concentration of talent and companies and small geographic
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spaces is that salaries have to go
up to match the the rents which are
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which all we're all driven by sort
of a forced scarcity which is completely comes
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from the idea of people going to
an office to work. To remove that
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and you have an opportunity to see
how far your hundred thousand pounds can go
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in in developer talent in in Latvia
or do Bai or Uganda right, and
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and so that is a is going
to be an incredible effect to companies.
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And also there are the gains in
in diversity of talent. I mean,
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I think the part of what the
pandemic has taught us is that people are
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really a company's most important asset,
and this is driving, I think,
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a renaissance of the HR function and
and a shift in the way that companies
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think about people and in the value
of people. And Diversity and inclusion and
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equity are going to be big themes
in in the next decade as a as
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a result of this. And so
the opportunity to bring in talent, wanted,
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individuals with diverse backgrounds and diverse view
points is is very attractive to a
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lot of companies and and that that
comes together to create what I call a
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superpower, yeah, round around talent
acquisition that companies that embrace this way of
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working are going to be able to
accelerate and on the strength of the brightest
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people and the most the most diverse
talent from around the world. Yeah,
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now it does make perfect sense.
What a very nice and inequent way to
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put it together. You are already
also one of my next question, which
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is, you know, what sort
of things would we carry for while from
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a nature of pels picked you from
from the catalyst that was upon the Nague
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and you just went through about the
equity in order that. But I guess
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for me, and probably what's useful
for all, Agencia is on the stone.
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What we are the barrels that I
used toys lifting. So let's talk
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about that, develop a Uganda,
for example. Let's talk about that data
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research in let Va. Let's talk
about the the data and the least in
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Manita. Okay, traditionally, what
was what was the what is the pain?
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That? That's you guys are serving
in. You know, she's great
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question, great question. So you
might wonder, why is this hard?
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Why hasn't this been solved already?
Why hasn't soft where Eaton this as it
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has eaten so many other things?
And the reason is employment itself. Employment
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is a regulated thing around the world, and that makes all the difference.
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It means that countries have rules about
how people are employed and and those rules
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are different. And so that is
that is a fund that is the fundamental
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complicator, which is there are consequences, there are rules, there's there's the
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importance of compliance and and getting to
that place of being able to compliantly legally
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employ a person in another country is
long, complicated, expensive. Company could
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decide if they had the clarity of
to know that, say, a particular
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country was going to be important for
them. They have a factory in Germany
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and American company, then they might
create a German entity, spend half a
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million dollars and three or four months
setting that up from a legal perspective,
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hiring a local accountant to handle the
the taxation, etc. And so that
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that would be just. That would
be just Germany. Right. And so
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the creating their own subsidiary route is
not something that any company can do for
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multiple reasons, even when they have
the risk the resources. Like, why
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should we create a subsidiary in Germany
to hire one German developer? It's ridiculous.
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Right. And so for decades we've
had what is called the employer of
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record model, which was absolutely ripe
for disruption. And this, this decade's
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old employment model is is based on
the idea that I'm a business whose business
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it is to allow other businesses to
employ through me, and so it's really
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kind of a paper clips and faxes
kind of business. It's not very digital.
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There's really no no software in there. There's no consideration to the experience
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of the employee, for example,
and but but that has been the alternative
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option for a lot of companies and
that is not easy either expensive, sometimes
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so expensive that it challenges the economic
benefits for employing someone in a in a
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particular country. Anyway, if you're
paying two thousand dollars a month just to
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be able to, you know,
hire them, then then that can that
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can be an issue right and so
that was the context that we that we
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saw and that and that we saw
was ready for disruption. And so it's
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really the the software ization of the
the combination of the information complexity around legal,
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compliant employment in in multiple countries,
the software ization of that, and
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it's the creation of a compliant payroll
engine that makes it easy for companies to
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pay in pounds or dollars or yen, as the case may be, to
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an endpoint for that for that for
that employee. And so we build on
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recent evolution and innovation on that front. There are there are services available today
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for for money transfer around the world
that have only existed in the last few
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years. So we build our our
HR enablement stack through a combination of our
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own proprietary technology and leveraging some of
the new infrastructure that is available in in
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the world of two thousand and twenty. That next perfect. Since that thanks
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for that. I mean one of
the point that you made earlier about the
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San Francisco and London and order.
I think I think there is a few.
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I'd like to come back to it
quickly. Because, well, of
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course there is the the price,
school after day jobs, wore meeter of
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space, kit space, and we
know that San Francisco is not ship.
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There is eyes London right all your
place on Birse New York. But unfortunately,
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when you want to be a big
company, you know you want to
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go with the action is right and
then the actions are into spaces. So
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you've got to be there right.
However, what we see and parts fularly
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with the explosion of of software companies
coming up. So I'm talking about you
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know, yours from San Francisco's.
You just need to go to to take
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a time machine and go back to
the Muscudi center ten years ago, to
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go to any convention. Good in
your Microsoft part now Ursa or you name
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it. You have a much smaller
bunch of people there and that you've got
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like literally the city is taken over. You know, as soon as there
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is is like eight hundred sounds start
coming in, it's mad okay, and
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with that come a few things.
Right, you need to find good developers.
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Is there more developers coming out of
school? Are they coming at the
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right scale? Are they coming quickly
enough out of school? Is there enough
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sales people, because we need to
sell your stuff and everybody is in a
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rush to sell their stuff. Is
there enough people to market your stuff,
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etc. Etc. So I think. I think for I appreciate there is
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there is some caust saving in remote
tiring, but I also think that you
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can really give yourself a better chance. I think from my perspective, if
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I was to look at the best
the number one opproximity of using a solution
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like yours is really the ability to
get talent and versus the New York crity
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that I will have to choose,
a media crity. Media to God,
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I may have to take that back, but compromise, yeah, the compromise
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that you would have to make to
select the best of a bad bunch.
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Now you can go for actually someone
with probably a little bit cheaper and maybe
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you could get two of them for
the price of one. That will do
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a better job than the one,
but you won't be able to touch them
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every day? Well, and you
shouldn't do it anywhere anyway, but you
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should. You won't be able to
see them physically in the office every day,
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but yeah, and that for me
is is the trigger, because I
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still like the your face and I
believe that, and maybe is it's our
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business. Is Proper to the way
we run things, but we will always
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have an office space where people can
get together, when we can gather on
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do that sort of stuff. However, access to language, access to good
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serves resources and also having people.
I think you have a lot of very
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smart people who are looking at just
this. What's the point of me being
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in my strip bedroom flat and so
on from Cisco? I've got two kids
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now, so I come to enjoy
the San Francisco night life and emo.
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It's kind of covid nineteen. So
there is funding going on and being in
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displaced by the results of people.
So why should I not just go in
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the middle of Ohire? You get
Mason for Nice Farm, get a couple
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of police for the kids and and, as you said, that walk life
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balance as well. So I think
people who are really smart and really good
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at what they're doing, they probably
will want to go away from the action.
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It looks maybe, yeah, yeah, so the big picture there everyone's
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wondering where will we equilibrate after this? Right, and so I think it's
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somewhere in the middle. Is the
clear answer. And there will be companies
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that make their own individual choice along
a continuum. Right and and but it's
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important to understand that the factors that
are that are in balance, right,
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and so on the on the go
back, on the go back to the
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office side of things. Right and
so many organizations are concerned about diminished productivity.
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Right. They they haven't solved that
yet. They have a lot of
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inertia in terms of other ways of
working, working in an office base way,
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and so for them there is a
legitimate concern of diminished productivity. There's
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also, related to that the fact
that some operations and functions require the office.
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What we hear a lot, for
example, is training of new employees
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is really not not something that is
very practical to kind of do entirely remote.
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Remotely. There are there are some
there's some things that have to happen
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and at a facility, from from
a logistics standpoint, and so some companies
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simply require whether it's because they believe
that that new starters to the company should
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not, be, let's say,
philosophically, allowed to work remotely. They
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may, they may have a position. For example, I think facebook has
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said as part of their declaration around
remote work last year that not all roles
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are eligible and that for the most
part New People to the company would probably
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still be required to come into the
office, and so that's a very interesting
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sort of approach and so that will
remain true for a lot of companies.
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They state, they quote, still
need the office for some reason. The
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other concern is is about culture and
socialization. Right people, and this is
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especially true of companies that that were
at an office, that have built relationships
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and ways of working. We're human
beings and part of what we get out
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of art of our employment is is
access to other human being beings and the
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socialization that that is absolutely an important
and important nourishment. And last but not
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least, some employees want to go
back. Right then, that that is
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that. That is true, and
I had a great conversation with the subject
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of San Francisco real estate at a
on a podcast actually was a clubhouse.
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It was my first clubhouse. I
did last week and this was a fellow
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who had a lot of intimate familiarity
with what is going on in the San
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Francisco commercial real estate seen and he
shared that there's like four hundred floors of
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empty real estate and commercial real estate
in in San Francisco Right now, some
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eight point one million a square feet, Fyi, and and and he he
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had the belief that if you're in
San Francisco and you're twenty five years old
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and you're in you're sharing an apartment
with three guys, you don't want to
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work remotely. Right. You're interested
in the social aspects which are a part
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of work for for so many people. Mean a lot of people still form
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romantic attachments at work. I mean
so work, the work, the work,
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social balance and and the gratification that
we get from that doesn't go away.
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To that, to that person sharing
a three sharing a one bedroom with
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three, three roommates, I would
say, like you said, yet you
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know, you could also move to
Ohio, right, and so that's not
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the you know, it wouldn't have
the problem of having to suffer your roommates
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all day. But but that that
remains a legit a legitimate concern. The
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companies have is some people like no, I would like to go back to
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the office for for whatever reason.
So those are the reasons to go back
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to the office, and then on
the reasons not to. It's the opportunity
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for tremendous cost savings, right,
and so, I mean I'm not an
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expert in terms of how much expense
goes to real estate in the carriage of
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office space at the big companies,
but I would imagine that at a company
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like Google or facebook it's well into
the tens of millions of dollars, yeah,
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per year. And so these companies
are going to are going to make
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a balanced decision about the pros and
cons. And and it might be true
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that billy, you know, who
lives in in in Soma, would love
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to return to the San Francisco Office
of facebook. But maybe facebook decides that
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it is, you know, it's
not worth it. And you know,
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sorry, billy, you know we
love you, but we're we're we're scaling
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back on on San Francisco Square footage
as a part of this king to new
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rebalancing and so that that counters.
People say, well, people want to
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go back to the office, but
but the economic incentive, particularly for very
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large companies, is extremely extremely significant
and counter to the first point, some
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employees want to stay home. And
then the third, the third piece,
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I'll just call it broadly the superpowers
of distributed company. Many companies are attracted
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to the superpowers, which include accelerated
organizational performance, the the advantages of access
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to the global talent, the increase
in average employee wellness and happiness. So
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these are very attractive factors and so
I think that every company will draw its
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own points of the ealence given.
Given those considering now, I think you're
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right. I think it does depend
so much on the demographic of the clients,
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of the companies are read that you
are you are. So it does
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depend on the demographic of the employee
that you've got. And and for us
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we found that, you know,
we've got. I think we were less
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so impact in North America, because
I think we will guys are based in
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Dallas and in that as we probably
had like when week off low down and
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then I was pretty much shit and
people are still putting into the office with
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musk on. But in York we
had to stop, you know, we
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had by load. We want to
load to come to the office right.
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It was kind of it was kind
of not to load and and we had
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a lot of people complaining. Where
a lot of people complaining because they were
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not in the right state of mind. You know, even from even from
334
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a mental and perspective, you have
people who are socialize, you have people
335
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that feed themselves from those of people
next to them. You've got people at
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Community Office, as you say,
could be romantic, could be bent O,
337
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could the energy that you get from
other people and when you think you
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got it working, is probably what
eighty percent of our week at the moment.
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And and and it's funny. I
was I was speaking to one of
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my clients and I've been back in
the office, you know, when lay
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there, when you know to to
sign some stuff and do some things in
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person that needs to be done.
And there was a couple of people then.
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And Yeah, it's actually great because
my days are like back to back
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in calls at the moment and when
I go to the office that I just
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cleaned that up and I just get
into all these code is actually fantastic to
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be a little bit less projective but
a little bit up here, you know,
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you come back in the evening,
and so I think you're right.
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I think for me is the balance, because now what I gotta like if,
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if my to do this is getting
out of end, I can walk
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from home. I'm set up now. I've got my desk. I'm not
351
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working from my you know, I'l
so far whatever I do, so I
352
00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.049
can really get stuff done. But
at the same times, when I've got
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a little bit more time and kind
of thought to be in the office,
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it's actually quite nice to be a
little bit less productive but to be in
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the contact of people. But again, he's just me. So it's not,
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as you said, I think is
the Aquiprim and each company will have
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to make decision of their own and
and and advice on what they want to
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do. But rest in Chol that
I think your solution is relatively pertinent,
359
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.950
if not really pertinent, and in
fact, you know, we're probably looking
360
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at using your solution because now that
we got to taste of remote walking and
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we let it works for us,
we are really likely to get people in
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different countries because, as you know, our business is really his language driven.
363
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We need we need to have people
want dust on the cult show and
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it's definitely a solution that we we
see a lot of value in. So
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I wanted to thank you so much
for your time, Jack. Unfortunately we
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get into the end of our session
today. I think we probably could have
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got one photos of thirty YS.
It's at least but, but, but,
368
00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:22.009
you know, all good things come
to an end at some points,
369
00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:26.569
unfortunately, but I guess do.
The question that I asked at that time
370
00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:30.519
of that point in the podcast is
really around people who would want to get
371
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.440
in touch with you. So there
is to US pay, there is people
372
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.759
who may want to discuss with you
and and and get your knowledge and and
373
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maybe speak about paying point up there
facing and some of that mess. You
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00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.789
know what, I did not know
that something like oyster existed. And yes,
375
00:28:45.069 --> 00:28:48.230
I'd love to get a few developers
in let via and it's always been
376
00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:51.910
a problem, but I want to
get one. So so, if we
377
00:28:51.950 --> 00:28:53.069
want to get intuch with you,
Jack, what's the best way to get
378
00:28:53.109 --> 00:28:57.380
in touch with you? So to
get in touch with me personally, I'm
379
00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:03.900
a jacket oyster hrcom and anyone who
is interested in our services can reach out
380
00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:10.369
to me or feel free to visit
Oyster hrcom and create a free account get
381
00:29:10.450 --> 00:29:14.890
started. We've made it quite easy
to get going. I would say also
382
00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:21.369
anyone who we're very committed to supporting
companies that are reaching for this ambition of
383
00:29:21.529 --> 00:29:25.279
being a distributed company, who are
really inspired by these superpowers, and so
384
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:30.240
I would welcome the chance to speak
to anyone who is looking for help or
385
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.839
guidance, either as a leader at
a distributed company or someone in the in
386
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.349
the people function, who wants to
understand sort of how to make all of
387
00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:44.430
that work better. We're excited to
share our own knowledge and insights as a
388
00:29:44.589 --> 00:29:48.309
as a growing, fully distributed company
ourselves, and so I would I would
389
00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:53.220
extend that offer warmly to anyone in
the audience that's wonder who. Well,
390
00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:56.059
thank you so much for your time
inject to the each wasn't absolutely to have
391
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:04.099
younger. Likewise, re operatics has
redefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology
392
00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:10.890
companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts
of building and managing inside sales teams in
393
00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:15.650
house has existed for many years,
companies are struggling with a lack of focus,
394
00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:22.400
agility and scale required in today's fast
and complex world of enterprise technology sales.
395
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:29.559
See How operatics can help your company
accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've
396
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:33.759
been listening to be to be revenue
acceleration. To ensure that you never miss
397
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.829
an episode, subscribe to the show
in your favorite podcast player. Thank you
398
00:30:37.910 --> 00:30:38.869
so much for listening. Until next
time,
