Episode Transcript
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You're listening to BB revenue acceleration,
a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on
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the cutting edge of sales and marketing
in their industry. Let's get into the
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show. Hi, welcome to be
to be a revenue acceleration. My name
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is bolium. With you when here
today with Ellen Chan, senior director of
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insight seals, in fact, the
personal of a the opportunity to walk with
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a couple of time. If I'm
not mistaking Alane, I think we had
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centrify, wh we work together on. More recently illumu. That's right,
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and how are you today? I'm
doing great. Thanks for having me on
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your podcast. This is exciting,
absolutely pleasure. We always speak society the
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rest of the time about all of
the things we are doing and conversion rate
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and stuff like that. is going
to be good to have a little bit
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more of a site conversation today about
I breathe model for as data. That's
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what we want to talk about today. But before we get into the conversation,
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would you mind just giving us a
little bit of a background about yourself?
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A name. Absolutely so. I
am a Bay Area California native,
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so I work here in California and
really I sort of grew my career in
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inside sales in the tech be the
be space. So I've had the opportunity
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to kind of do what it is
that I do in terms of building up
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inside sales teams so that we could
leverage a team of sales professionals to really
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build on sales pipeline and revenue.
So it's been a two decade career.
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Find that continue to continues to go
strong. Good to decade. Time flies
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by particularity when the when we are
looked at him. If there's a less
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joe was was going so quick.
So you've been leaving thirt's development team for
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two decadors, you mentioned. So
have a lot of experience in managing in
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town old people and as well as
external people. So first of all,
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before we get into the must do
must not do, what's your definition of
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Ibread team? So I would define
the hybrid team as really leveraging and extending
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what is normally kind of your full
time employees into kind of leveraging partnerships.
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Right, I think, if anything, that I've learned in the, you
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know, span of my career.
Things are always changing and the more diversity
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that you bring intear in sight sales
programs, the the more scale that you
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can develop for success. Right,
especially in technology, it is so rapidly
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changing that your tactics need to evolve
very quickly. Messaging needs to continue to
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grow as fast as the market changes
and the more street on the the more
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feed on the street, the more
knowledge that you have from different pockets of
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expertise, the better you can navigate
and grow and change and evolved. Yep,
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that makes sense. So from your
experience, and we know that you
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you've been a we took about a
bread team that we'd be able to complement
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each other up pretty well. Are
we talking about people that we'll be doing
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inbound response management and also outbound and
it would so. Insight sers is that
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he's at the full Cucolo is that? Is there anything of the missing in
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that? I read model. I
think it could mean a lot of different
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things for different companies. Right,
in the different companies that I've worked at,
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I've used kind of a hybrid model
or I've used internal versus external resources
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differently. So, for example,
you know, earlier in my career it
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wasn't as popular to use third party
resources. They weren't as available as I
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feel like the market has now has
really opened up for inside sales, and
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so there's a lot more companies today
that offer these types of services then,
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let's say ten fifteen years ago.
We're really the only service that you could
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leverage from a hybrid perspective was use
a third party to get appointments and just
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get in the door. What I
have seen evolve over time is really specialization
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that allows you to leverage third parties
beyond just appointment setting. You can and
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almost use them and almost the best
practices to expand your existing infrastructure through a
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third party to get more reach and
get more scale and, you know,
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treat them as an extended part of
the internal ecosystem. Yeah, I think.
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I think that makes sense and we
definitely felt that way when we walked
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with you, in fact a record
at some point we were kind of a
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fix like almost like the the end
on the hole in the bucket, because
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you may have someone that has been
Mataiti leave all, whatever it would be,
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and you just need someone to do
a short term replacement, as well
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as potentially when you function or we
will doing it that way, but we're
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thinking about doing it this way.
We all really know to get going quickly
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can you guys govern that? But
so that makes perfect sense. So he
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is. That's what would be the
best scenario to to deepray and I break
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team from your perspect even experience in
which, in which way does it work
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the best? What with other snail
that you need to be into? Yeah,
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so, you know, I think
where I've leverage third party or like
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a hybrid model, I've actually done
it several different ways and including what you
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shared. You know, there may
be times where you need coverage because of
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changes on the team. I've experienced
situations where, you know, with product
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launches, you need to do a
special form of messaging and really do a
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bit more kind of thing ink tank
research, so building out a special campaign
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and a special team to help figure
out how to build that out before you
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invest a lot of that time into
building up an internal team. Leveraging third
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parties to do things very quickly at
scale and to really help with messaging that
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hasn't necessarily been proven out. That's
been an area that I think a third
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party has really lended their expertise.
You know, I've actually also done some
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interesting things where working intech there's a
lot of channel based business and you know,
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sometimes when you're just building up that
channel based programs. There's not necessarily
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an opportunity to have an internal team
work special call campaigns. But really leveraging
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a third party to do joint channel
programs is allowed insight sales to scale beyond
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what an internal team has the capacity
or the time commitments to do. So
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that's another area that I've seen leveraging
third parties really built scale. And then
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really, lastly, I think there
are many areas at which language specialization is
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required and having a full time employee
cover an area that requires that can get
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very expensive building that internally. So
leveraging a third party allows you to really
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get the scale and all so that
specialization that's needed in certain cockets of the
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world that require specific languages. Yes, it's true. We've been cutting in
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the seeing a few people for you
in the best, yes, lung,
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which quis it but which is great. You can. This is one of
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the value if for one if ty
you can get two languages. You know,
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that's that's that's value. So that
that's what we that's actually what we
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will praying nails for as one of
a USB talking about tour that. So
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if you want to speak about pros
and cones of inside valsus outside, and
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I guess you know for you clearly
the best word is a bit of both.
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But there is clearly present rones on
both sides. So let's start with
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the inside team. What would be, from your perspective, to pros and
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cones of just bringing everything and doing
everything in house? Yeah, I think
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there are kind of pros and cons
for for everything really. But you know
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the pros of having an internal team
you know you can cultivate and truly have
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and you know a team that is
interlocked with the company success. Right typically
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in Tach you know people join exciting
startup technology companies because of the equit equity
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opportunity to ree a part of a
company and so as you build a team
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you really have their heart and soul
poured into the success of the company and
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so you know that's a great thing. As you cultivate and internal team is
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you have that commitment and that you
know, the blood flows with the passion
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to really help that company be successful. But you know there's also the contuit
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in that it takes a lot of
time for management to build and train and
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develop and scale that team and sometimes
you don't have the time or the scale
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to do something like that, and
so they're there are often opportunities where leveraging
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a third party to move very quickly, you know, especially for startup companies
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that are just getting started to figure
out what that longer term scale could be.
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And so you almost can start with
an outsource company and then eventually bring
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things internal as you determine and establish
the rinse and repeatability of what sales development
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does. Yeah, I agree with
your I think the to be that I've
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been discussing fumons recently and you are
the perfect Posson to discussage with because,
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as you say, you're bought and
bread in the bay area. You know,
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been walking in that space and for
a far amount of time. Is
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the lack of tenant you know,
or maybe the the lack of tenants Y,
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let me put a positive spin on
that. The the amount of demand,
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because I think, I think the
off is Der Fund. Your firm
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may have grown of all time,
but, as you know, we started
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our business of poetics, who are
based in sons, a down town and
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knows, a at the bottom of
some Pedro Square, fantastic nation, great
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spot. Absolutely could go forth to
fresh beers after after our shifts at work,
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which is always, always, always
lovely. But yeah, we had
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to stop it because two issues.
First of all is that getting talent was
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competitive and difficult. So you had, we had to kind of we had
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to focus on recruiting people who have
the right profile versus the right history,
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because technically we get people are really
early on that career, did not really
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know what they want to do and
there is a risk with st because they
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starting beyond two weeks later, they
don't like it. They saw that they
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would like it, but they don't
like it. And then the other thing
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that it was quite all these people
who start to become good and literally the
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promotion within spree months, you know
the one. You have instruments time,
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or they want to start their own
company or we had some guys start in
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your brewery, not for long,
you probably did for two weeks, but
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there is a sort of mindset of
really entrepreneurial people and we found it extremely
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difficult. Not like we don't,
we didn't finally, we finally difficulty.
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We found the difficulties in the loyalty
of the staff and being able to wait,
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and so the difficulty was more in
you having some sort of consistency.
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Okay, what's your views on that? I mean you, because most of
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the team have been boot into Bayario. Of you had defculte's have who expiens
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that you can becoming more defect more
challenging. You know, I think it's
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always been a challenge, right.
I think finding talent is always the hardest
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challenge and you know, any role
in any position, right, it cost
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a lot of money to find the
right talent, to retain them and to
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develop them. In the bay area
there certainly is the you know, is
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a big demand for you know hungry, you know smart intelligence, passionate sales
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people. And but I would say
in the time that I have been doing
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what it is that I do,
I have seen this role really expand to
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other pockets of the country and of
the world. Right, you'll you kind
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of know as an inside sales leader
that there are certain areas that are hot
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spots for for good talent. You
know, Utah's been building up. I've
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had a team there. You know, Boston's a big hug for inside sales.
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You know, they almost find a
lot of tech companies and insight sales
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hot spots kind of build up because
when there's the demands and there are,
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you know, always newer graduates from
college that want to get into technology,
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you want to get into sales.
There's talent, but it moves so quickly
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that you need to be quick at
finding the right talent, building them up
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and, you know, having that
career path to drive them to continue to
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invest in, you know, the
company and to build that career with you.
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And it does get very challenging,
which is sort of why having the
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third parties coming to help with that
coverage as you're going through the ebbs and
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flows of, you know, team
development, having a third party be a
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hybrid part or an extension of that
team just kind of build that consistency.
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Yeah, yeah, we we.
That's kind of technically we've done exactly what
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you which you just describe, and
you are thinking about potentially opening on a
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or Sino in North America. Particular. In Europe we have wrist so of
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that tissue. So in Europe what
we've decided to do is to get out
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of the hub, because if you
get into a island or Barcelona where there
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is lots of native speakers, what
we've seen doing is that, or what
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we've seen happening is people so let's
say you are Russian. Are you are
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from the Middle East, which are
too longer a reatively difficult to get back
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by that sort of board. The
Russian guy would be in island. So
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there is my gfeed. There is, let's not mention any even though,
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but there is like five or ten
cyber security vendor, end point vendor,
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of big names around there and the
same guys. We'll go from one company
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to the other every six months with
the same work, retail increasingly sorlary by
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five dainting in German and literally eighteen
months later come back to the first place
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and start a cycle again. Yeah, during the same job and just getting
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more money as time goes by because
you know the same recruit or plays them
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and people are fighting for for the
shortage of languages. So what would you
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say you to do in the UK
is to is to sell source of London,
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where we don't have a lot of
competition around us. So it's very
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unique what we are playing and and
that's fine. But in the US we
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started in in Texas, so in
Dallas, when you did not have a
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lot of companies that we're doing what
we are doing in Dallas, but they
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all pay now the competition is spills. So we've got we've got we've got
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a bit more of a difficulty to
recruit because there is lots of competition in
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recruitman getting people out of Hunim city
like that. But again, one of
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the great news that we we we
came to, we discovered last year,
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unfortunately, with with Covid, which
is not a good news, is the
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fine that we can become a complete
invisible organization. People can work from home,
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a concept that myself I was not
too clean on. I wanted my
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team to be. It is on
to feel the atmosphere. So we still
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have a good part of the team
that are in the office, but it
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kind of open up the horizon in
some of the people that you could get
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to join the team and open up
to new to new places, potentially to
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get to get newcomers coming in.
Moving on to the outsource model, what
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what have been the shortcoming that you've
seen from our source in the difficulties that
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you added any by all mean feel
free to discuss about some of these.
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You counts you may have. I'd
walking with a such a bootics as well,
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because you know, we have to
be when as into the point and
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I'm sure that you know when we
have a difficulties, we work together to
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to to welcome them. Yeah,
but you what I think? I think
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that most difficult part is sometimes there's
a misconception that when you leverage a third
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party that you can just hire them
and sort of set it and forget it,
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and the reality is you cannot write
the the care and feeding that you
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would typically put into an inhouse team. You still need to do a lot
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of that. You know, training
the team, having ongoing cadences to be
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sure that there's a good flow of
expectations and you know that as objections and
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new situations arise, that that that
require the vendors expertise to teach and and
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improve kind of the messaging. There
needs to be a tight in a very
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close relationship with with the outsourced agency, and so I think that's probably the
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the one challenge is really knowing and
committing to providing the time and the coverage
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to help support that agency to be
successful right to be a part of of
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the company. I think that's one
of the challenges that oftentimes come up is
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that learning curve of understanding how much
you do to to put towards the care
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and feeding of a third party.
I think the the other challenges in a
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hybrid model you have an internal team
and you have a external team, building
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up the right culture so that,
you know, a little bit of healthy
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competition is always a good thing,
so that that's a positive but also creating
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that healthy dynamic of competition and making
sure that operationally, if you're going to
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leverage a third party and the inhouse
team to cover inbound leads, how do
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you do that? Or if you're
doing an inbound versus outbound model, the
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the conundrum that most inside sales leaders
come about is if someone is spending their
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time trying to break into a target
account and then all of a sudden there's
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an inbound lead for that target account. Did that come as a result of
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that person's heavy lift of really trying
to break into that account? So building
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out that structure so that you could
really have clean lines of division of Labor,
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it takes time and it takes kind
of that operational commitment to be sure
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that you can divide and conquer appropriately
with the internal team in the external yeah,
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it's not impossible. It just takes
time, coordination, collaboration between your
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ops people and you know, the
inside sales team and that work around with
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the agency. Yeah, now,
I think that that makes plfit sense in
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dumb, dumb of the the first
pointed stuff. It was actually the second
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point. It actually a best party
that we do more and Moise to actually
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mix the team together and and and
get people to actually have a little bit
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of that healthy competition as you mentioned. So yeah, it's need to make
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sure that we compare uple with apple, because it's actually quiet prayer that we
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operate in the same way as our
clients would operate. So in most of
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the case our clients team with get
kind of the inbound the people coming in
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and sharing interest. So it's more
of a development troll, if you will.
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Well, they may use US more
for the Abas type of things that
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there can be selling and the practice
them, but we still find a way
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to get into account and we find
equivalent to to two other sort of flecty
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competition and getting the team to meet
with each other when we can. Of
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course it run but even if it's
a zome goal getting to know each other
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and we've got some fantastic program where
usually the internal team were often more knowledgeable
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on us because they spend more time
in training because, as I mentioned,
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they do the developments roll rather than
the practive role. There are more indepth
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with the products that are closer to
the prospect need from a personal perspective.
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So we can actually get a ton
of information from them and also of war
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story that can help our peractive practive
team to be successful. But then they're
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also very interesting. Is Interesting to
see, as you mentioned, sometimes the
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practive team go out but you don't
really get this success from the front.
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You red you got books from an
inbound because of people you've been touching.
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So yeah, it's about the fantasies
in Boltont and and when we've good the
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team walking together on it, thinking
and that competing with each other, it's
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the best pussy aboard way to make
it work. I think that's a really
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important part point that you make,
because in the different ways that I've worked
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with third parties and even in the
different ways that I've worked with operatics,
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from company to company or even within
the company, we continue to evolve and
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change the dynamics of the team to
to grow faster, and so you know,
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I can say like it Allumia,
we started off having operatics help out
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with some of the inbound coverage because
we had had some internal changes in the
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company and, you know, later
ended up shifting into reversing the model as
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we built up that internal team to
then be ready to take more of the
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inbounds and then leverage third the third
party, or leverage operatics in this case,
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to really focus on some of the
target accounts to really help us get
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into the companies that we had a
hard time getting into. And so that
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fluidness of being able to Morphin evolve
that relationship is key and it comes in
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forms of also connecting the different team
members, and so one of the natural
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things that I saw happen is,
you know, a good example is in
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our Europe operation patients. We tie
our internal reps and the operatic seem very
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closely. So when we're doing our
weekly meetings, we've got representatives on the
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internal team and operaticts working together to
share their experiences and to help each other
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out on accounts that, you know, may need a little bit of team
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working on. Appreciate that and yeah, it has been working pretty well and
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that's the thing you want. I
think, from the sub partic perspective,
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what we want to make sure we
provide that flexibility. Yes, and it's
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easy to bring flexibility to coming back
to the first point, you mentioned some
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of the kind of what we be
do. Tips to get the most out
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of your your your outsource or yourself
party. You mentioned the finds. You
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know you need to do a bit
of and olding. You know you need
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to help them to get going and
as particularly true when you do a practive
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campaign. Unfortunately, I think it's
so that the market has shifted, but
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there is lots of companies that are
technically competitors of operatics and must be very
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desperate for business because they go out
there and say, you know what,
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we will work for free and you
need pay us when we get reserves.
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That's all good, but when you
work in sales, it's like if yourselves
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guys were coming to yeah, preference, that's okay, I don't need the
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basic salary. You just pay you
when I close a deal, the good
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sales gay room come, you know. So that's that's the but unfortunately that's
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sort of men enterity as acted against
that. That statement that you made.
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Were people think that sub party can
be like a disposable assets. You just
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get them. So again, I'm
gonna plug them just guys seems to have
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a bit of experience the walk with
a part of my competitors. The must
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have released. All right, of
you go, guys, and if it
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doesn't work and see you in amounts
time. If it doesn't walk, don't
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contact me, but if it doesn't
walk, gonna Tell meate you. We
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don't see a lot of clients doing
that, but we've seen. We definitely
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see a little bit more for a
commoditization of the way people manage their relationship
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with subparty. And it's funny because
it's walking both way. so much quicker
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than ever to win a new contract, to get someone to say people make
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quick decision, but they're also making
decision to tell things off. It's for
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some reason. You know you have
a bad record, a bad amounts,
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but unfortunately in the video space there
is a lot of fact I can influence
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a bad record, but mounts and
but yeah, and I think I know
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that working with you and it's probably
because you've done the job yourself. Unfortunately,
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we've got lots of people who are
managing team that that may not have
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done the job themselves right. I'll
gotten when they were doing the job.
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So they forgot the challenge survey.
You would made a point earlier that triggered
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a thought in my mind instrums of
working with third cardy agencies, and that
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thought was also not only does the
relationship that you have with an out source
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entity require kind of that that teamwork
and collaboration, but I think one of
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the things that I have found is
leveraging and outsource agency to be a partner
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in planning and overcoming some of the
growth challenges that a company might have.
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There's a breath of experience that agencies
bring because they work with so many other
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companies, that when you go to
them with some of the challenges that you
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have, they can really help create
creative ideas on how they can help solve
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some of those, you know,
pipeline development or growth strategy challenges. Yeah,
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yeah, I agree with you.
We we try to do all this
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that. I think there is a
few aspect. There isn't aspect on aspect
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on messaging there because you've got to
add up your Miss Age and and I
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think it's it's interesting to get that
world way view. What's walking in France
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is if with something that walks in
California works with a prospecting Buston on New
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York, met Aria. You approachum
in the same way. So it's about
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it's about the adaptation and we try
to keep it out of data around that
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it's always moving. In particulars jol
things have evolved a lot. I know
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that we we were speaking at some
points and we were trying to help our
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clients to understand the word to focus
in the US, because we had some
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stays that were completely shutting down at
the beginning of covidence and was out was
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still in. Takes US things.
What I kind of going sounds will just
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like still going, while California and
New York was much more difficult to the
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business at some point. So we're
trying to keep up like a hit map
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of where we should focus or not. But yeah, we try to provide
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it inside. Now I think the
last question that I've got for you really
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a ladies you know, if it
was too if it was to do it
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all again, with all the things
that you've learned over the the last twenty
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years of managing inside and an outside
team, what would you say is the
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model that you would come to?
And when I say the model you would
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come to, I'm talking about you
know you will be an organization, expressive,
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a termout of inbound, probably an
organization. It is between the US
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and Europe. If that a pack, so that potentially some languages. So
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if you had to just take everything
from all your learning, how would you
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manage the whole thing and how would
you deploy internal versus external? Yeah,
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I think number one I would focus
on keeping my plan as simple as possible,
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because if I make it too complex, it really becomes a nightmare to
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manage. And so we are have
found the best blend is into areas.
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Number One, leveraging third party resources
to break into those regions and those territories
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that I explained are oftentimes difficult because
you need that language specialization. There is
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in my career have not been able
to build that global scale without leveraging third
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parties because you just don't have the
cost advantage of hiring full time employees that
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you know are needed in the vast
coverage of languages internationally. The second area
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that I would really lean on is
leveraging the third parties in areas where I
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am trying to break into net new
accounts. That is very challenging and difficult
359
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to break into, and part of
that is with account based programs. You
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can be smart about targeting those accounts, but there's also times that it's very
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difficult to just put an insight seller
and have them cold call their way through.
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Leveraging third parties that do have their
ways of also bringing in the relationships
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they have with some of those target
accounts actually open up an opportunity that I
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wouldn't have been able to do organically
with my internal team. So those are
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two great ways that I have kind
of seen the unsurpassed benefit of leveraging a
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hybrid model in The Times that by
have leverage companies like operatics. Good.
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What else wants? Thank you so
much for your insight today and I was
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great. If anyone wants to connect, tease you and other conversation discause discuss
369
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some of the stuff that's you.
You mentioned to there was the best way
370
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to get in order of you.
Absolutely I always love kind of sharing my
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my craft of insight sales with other
like minded folks, so you can find
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me on Linkedin. I can be
easily found, I think linkedincom in Ey
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Chan. Okay, perfect. Well, it was an absolute pleasure to have
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you on the podcast today, so
thank you very much for all time in
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Ordine said. It shows us.
Thank you. operatics has redefined the meaning
376
00:29:48.589 --> 00:29:53.819
of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts of building and
377
00:29:53.900 --> 00:30:00.420
managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed
for many years, companies are struggling with
378
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:06.099
a lack of focus, agility and
scale required in today's fast and complex world
379
00:30:06.339 --> 00:30:11.769
of enterprise technology sales. See How
operatics can help your company accelerate pipeline at
380
00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:18.930
operatics dotnet. You've been listening to
BEDB revenue acceleration. To ensure that you
381
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never miss an episode, subscribe to
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382
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Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.
