Episode Transcript
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You were listening to be tob revenue
acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software
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executives stay on the cutting edge of
sales and marketing in their industry. Let's
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give into the show. Hi,
welcome to beat. To be a reve
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in new generation. My name is
onion with Kier, and yet today we
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sky cord man, VP Revenue Growth
Clary. How are you doing today?
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Guide, I am living the dream. How are you doing? Ray,
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very good. Thank you, very
very good. So today we're tooking as
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Dr Manager Effectiveness, but before we
get into the top peak, would you
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manage just giving a little bit of
background to yourself kind as well as the
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company Hewers and carry? Yeah,
absolutely. So. I currently am at
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Clary, but I'll get a moment. Prior to joining Clarry, I was
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at a company called looker for six
years. I was the sixth employee.
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This is intelligence company basing California.
Grew the SER team from myself to about
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sixty five people globally. As a
company grew to about eight hundred or so
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employees over the course of six years, got to about a hundred ten million
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in revenue and then was acquired by
Google for two and a half billion dollars
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in two thousand and nineteen. Then
jumped over to Clary, where I lead
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sales development, sales enablement, value
engineering as well as demand generation, so
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the teams that are responsible both for
creating and accelerating pipeline for both our new
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logo business as well as our customer
expansion and retention business. And what Clary
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does? It clary is a revenue
operations platform that makes all of your revenue
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processes as connected and optimized as possible
so that you know where you're going to
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lay and before it happens, you
know in week one of the quarter higher
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court is going to turn out,
and that just makes life a lot easier,
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both for private and public companies.
Yeah, sounds good. Replacing the
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taking away the pain off ocassing in
a way, I guess. which take
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exactly right. And one of the
one of the reason no one of the
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fight that trigger that conversation they release
is suppose that you put on Linkedin,
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and that's interesting. Piece was about, as Dr Manager, I thinktiveness and
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you are laighteen that post. Four
points that you be Funda Mentor for as
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Dr Letails to be successful. Would
you mind just taking audience through the four
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points and explain briefly which one of
them mean from your perspective. Yeah,
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I will answer your question here Ray, but I want to give you a
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little bit of background, which is
a lot of strs managers become managers just
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by virtue of having been really good
reps, and the same is true,
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of course, on the saleside with
a kind of executives that turn into sales
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managers. And often what doesn't get
trained are simply expectations. What is now
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expected of them that they're in a
management role. It's very different for being
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a high performing individual contributor and it
really refers a different mindset at different focus,
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a different time horizons, different goals, all these sorts of things.
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And so I realized that this was
the case with a handful of the managers
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that we have on the team here
because they had been promoted. They were
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strs for two plus years each and
they were excellent team leads. People looked
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up to them, their process managers, all the sort of things. So
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it's a pretty natural evolution for them
to become management people on our team.
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However, they were first time managers
and they didn't have a ton of understanding
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of what it took to be successful
in the role, and so I thought
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that it was a disservice to them
to not give them more prescriptive understanding of
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what it takes to be successful.
And that's how this manager effectiveness exercise was
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born. Created the scorecard that we
had them evaluate ourselves against, we evaluate
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them against, and I created the
gaps that exist and now we know what
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we need to work on for each
of them over, you know, the
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Munth and quarters, so that they
can continually improve and continually become a more
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effective manager. I feel the pain. I feel the pain guy, and
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the reason why I feel depend probably
some mismiling. When we are going through
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the the intro of way, the
fall from the mentors. We've been very
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big on the promotion from within to
Paratics, bit like a Papa Jones or
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McDonald relative, and pretty much order
of our managers even get ay now we're
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just to set up the podcast today
with our marketing director. They all coming
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from an is dal position, so
they were stopped at the bottom. So
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what you end up getting, you
get. You end up creating a fantastic
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card show and people want us only
read the business inside out, but my
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God, the gross pain can be
very painful and I think for us,
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with we tried to do is even
before the promotion, is setting up expectation.
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So actually, right now we're going
to running so size of competency frame
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wall, because I may be gone
things that you can would be a fantastic
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manager and you would become Vinci also
that's you're are frontestic manager. And for
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some reason we do it and he's
becomes very painfully he doesn't walk out.
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And what we don't want to do
is to build a good resource and and
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it's our job as the manager,
of the potential manager, of the coming
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of manager, to find the right
possible just people are right. So yeah,
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I do feel so much what you
are saying. Very interested to the
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move. Would the fall fundamental,
the end of the detenant. There you
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go. Yeah, I'm not surprised
that here we're aligned. I mean,
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this is a pretty common problem for
growth companies. So they answer the question
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that you asked about what our kind
of a categories that we're evaluating our managers
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against. What defines SDR management effectiveness
to us? And there are four main
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categories. The first one is making
the team successful, and this includes things
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like people development, you know,
helping people grow their careers, identifying what
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growth paths they're interested in and ensuring
that they're prepared for this growth pads.
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It's things like effectively running team meetings. You know, this is a major
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gap for a lot of people that
are promoted from an individual and to a
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manager role. They've no idea how
to run meetings, that to prepare,
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what data points are interesting, how
to communicate key things, all these sorts
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of things. It also includes things
like how to influence behavior and how to
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motivate other people, and again,
these are more leadership capacity things. This
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is not just management, it's also
leadership and if I were to point out
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a pretty big gap between an individual
moving into a people manager role, it
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is developing those leadership skills. And
so this first category of making the team
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successful really is centered on leadership.
I think expectation is is quite interesting.
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The big gap that we've seen is
people kind of being a good sense spells
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of managing their own business, basically
the person they manages themselves and obviously,
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when you all responsible for all the
people to deliver, and for me that
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was a massive cross paine because I
was Oh my God, I need to
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change now. So yeah, hundred
percent. And and another thing that was
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probably always see being a little bit
more of Gross Spain is on the funding
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out to adapt your communication with leadership. Okay, what we need to show,
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and while you are probably much better
at that because we kind of tell,
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we need to see. I think
he's setting up the expectations of what
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needs to happen and what it means
to be a manager for you personality,
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but also your relationship with people,
because your relationship will involve you've got new
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managers, you've got set up your
relationship with them. So it's again music
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to males and it's a good segue
into one of the other four principles or
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pillars that were evaluating our managers against
his cross Functional Leadership Acumen. How good
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are they at doing the things very
that you just mentioned? Managing up to
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this the more singing people. How
are they reporting on progress? How are
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they giving data read outs that?
How are they making sure that the right
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people cross functionally have insights into the
right things at the right times? But
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it's also managing across you know,
if you're an ser manager, how do
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you work well? Now with an
AE manager? It's very different. Than
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working with an individual a and there
are different considerations, there are different things
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or different topics that you need to
be well versed on, and so that
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kind of cross functional leadership is another
really, really important thing that you make
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sure that you're really prescriptive about training
your team on. So this is the
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first two categories. Is leadership among
kind of down the chain of command,
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and then across and up the chain
of command. Yeah, the third and
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I think probably most natural pillar is
process management. So if you are an
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individual contributor and you are promoted into
a managerial role, it's probably because you
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have a pretty good eye for process
your organized, your efficient, your proficient
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with all the things that you need
to do, you understand all the all
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the tools and technology. And now, in a managerial role you have to
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be able to document your process if
you haven't already, and you have to
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be able to train on this processes, and so that sort of process management
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is super, super important. I
don't know if I've ever seen a successful
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on frontline manager who's not really really
well versed on the processes that it takes
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to be successful. In fact,
you know, speaking about the busy team
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of promoting from within, we actually
get a lot of fantastic ideas from the
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ground up in time of of what
you just mentioned, which is the processes
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and making sure that people and get
the right data right time, that we
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provide them with the right input,
with desire off from them, but also
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in them, of ultimating processes.
It's often coming from the bottom of the
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company grow you see less and less
what's opening on the ground. That's good
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for people like me or my business
partner with the seat of the business.
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I mean's don't know, five years
ago, six years ago. Free equip
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the newly promoted manager with confidence and
also tell them, look, you're going
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to make mistakes, but we want
to carry you need to do new thing.
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You have processes that we will set
that we will teach you, that
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you've got to do. But when
something is not walking, there is two
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things you can do. Is Look
up and expect something to come from us
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or try something. Yeah, okay, and if you try something and new
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Fain, we're going to learn all
together and we're going to make the rest
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of it him long from it.
Oh, you can try something and see
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it and become a hero. Okay, so you use all alone, you
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become a hero. But don't look
up because we don't have all the processes.
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So we trying to really empower them
to think on their fit and we
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believe that they are the best people
to do it because they are the people
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that are in the trenches literally just
now. So yeah, it's important for
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that process. Expect we think it's
about them getting the expertise of knowing our
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basic process, but he's also developing
down expects and we've got so much coming
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from the team, and that's for
them. Is Creating legacy which in return
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make them feel fantastic, which in
return may give them even more prospect to
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progress. And for us, from
a selfish perspective, they feel important,
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they feel invested, so they stick
with us. I love that and I
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couldn't agree more. And again,
I'm really useful. Segway into the fourth
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and final category here, which is
kind of hard to care arise together or
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lumped together, so we just call
it intangibles, which are exactly what you
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just said. Read the autonomy.
Are they able to think for themselves,
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so they able to create something new
from nothing? Critical thinking skills. As
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an individual, you're probably very good
at being assigned a task and figuring out
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how to solve it. As a
manager, you have to both identify what
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needs to be solved and you have
to solve it, and that is a
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very, very important step in critical
thinking skills. intenigibles also include things like
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you listening skills, and you have
to train. And again, most individual
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high performing reps are great listeners,
but it's a different ball game when you're
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managing people and not just managing deals. And then one other thing I want
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to mention is is curiosity, and
I think this this goes really nicely to
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what you mentioned. Ray. If
you're really curious about the process, if
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you're really curious about your people,
the personas the company itself, the product,
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the solution you're selling, it's extremely
important for you to have that curiosity
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so that you can do exactly what
you said. You can create this experiments,
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you can create hypotheses, you can
test this hypotheses, you can do
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readoubts on what you learn, you
can admit to failure, you can admit
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to success. It's really, really
important. So those are the four pillars
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and we could spend many more minutes
and hours probably unpacking these, but I
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think at a high level it's a
really useful framework to think about how to
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evaluate your team. And then again, I don't want to. I can't
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stress this enough you. The onus
is on you, as a manager of
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managers, to make sure that these
expectations are really well articulated and documented and
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that you're doing everything you need to
you to train your team on this doesn't
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just happen by accident. It happens, like anything else, by intent,
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and so you have to be intentional
about definding these things, and that's how
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you say your team up for success. A undred Possi in agreement with your
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in the intangible. In fact,
this is probably intangible that are the most
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difficult to assess if you don't have
a framework to us at them. And
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you know probably, for example,
you know listening and speaking. I think
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the emotion is changing drastically when you
are videaized. The ore valsus becoming a
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manager. You know we we actually
train or gay to coach. We've got
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a training program with an External Company
called the sells impact academy around coach and
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the art of asking question to open
up a resource, to open up a
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colleague, versus telling you what to
do. The out of making people take
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the decision for you, and these
are probably the dose kind of self skill
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where you've got people who've got the
empathy, right emotional intelligence, the rat
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curiousity, which for me, are
things that come from your education. You
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know, you can't. I can't
teach someone to become curious right youse a
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welcome curious or you've been developed by
your authorency and your education to become curious,
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or you are not joious. I'm
not going to make you curious.
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I don't think is. I don't
think I can. I can't make you
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more emotional intelligence. I can make
you feel that you can walk on it,
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but you know, it's like everything. You've got strength weaknesses, and
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what you should do is obviously trying
to get better at your weaknesses, but
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I think most people that it should
focus on their strength. You know,
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I love the intangible and do skills. What we try to do? We
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actually try to build a team of
avengels. We've got one day at one
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day that can go on down the
water, the other one get great and
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get fretty younger. Ideos are one
can do whatever, because sometimes finding the
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full package is a bit difficult.
Okay, but if we can find someone
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that is ide emotional intelligence, have
a good listening, ears and everything.
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Maybe someone will have more of a
manager role towards the resources on the compaign
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co one of got more criticals thinking, maybe a bit more curiosity or more
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assertiveness, maybe more like a client
type of day. But then we can
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pair them to work together and let
them learn from each other. And sometimes
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finding the full page has been difficult
and obviously you know you as we grow.
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Now we are seconding the roles,
but when we will promoting the first
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manager? You had to be a
Swiss some my knife. You need to
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be able to recruit, need to
be able to enable, you need to
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be able to coach, you need
to be able to deal with clients,
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you need to be able to custom
or success, you need to be able
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to report up, report down,
manage expectation. And that's a little bit
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too much for resource to text.
What we really is about. The years
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this intangible are probably the most difficult
because there's the thing that you can't teach
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people and you kind that sort of
group where everybody feels good because while they
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may not be the full package and
they know it, because you do three
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hundred and sixty interviews and you you
do, you do the competency framewalk.
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You know what your strength thought and
you know that you ought to tie rod
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something. So we start trying to
be like a Jakeo for trade. We
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tried to get our guys to be
like a easy experience of that. You
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Won't Ski Coaching Session. Go to
Josh's probably one of the best coach we've
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gotten the team. You know.
So do intens you what are very interesting.
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I'd like to know two things.
I'd like to know how you've been
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measuring them and I'd like to know
your feedback or so. And you alsoits
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on what we've been doing, which
is kind of trying to that assemble a
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team of a venge of the Elso
I think somewhere does it a bit of
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a thing. It's just like any
team. You know, sports metaphors are
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really useful here. You don't build
a successful sports team by hiring a group
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of leaden people that are all really
good at the same thing. You need
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people that are specialists at certain things. You need a strengths to complement each
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other's weaknesses and that's how you build
a great team. So we were totally
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aligned on that front and recognizing what
people strengths are. While improving the weak
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areas is really important. That way
you can kind of have the best of
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both worlds. Even know who the
go to person is for training and onboarding.
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You know who the go to person
is for growth pads and training,
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for what's next in the career development
standpoint. You know who the right person
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is to go and have a difficult
conversation with as an individual, a or
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sales manager like you know, and
you can learn from each other that way.
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So it's really, really useful.
A lot of people make a terrible
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mistake of hiring for a profile that's
the same exact person and then you end
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up with a team that looks,
feels, acts and thinks the same way
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and that there's nothing sure to stunt
your growth then having a group of people
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that thinks the same way. So
we are eye on that point right now.
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Your first question, how do we
measure the intangibles? It's hard because
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they're intangible. So it's not like
it's not like you can assign, you
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know, any really specific score.
It really I mentioned this before. I'll
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really I'll restate it. We ask
our managers to self assess, say,
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okay, here's the list of intangibles
here's a definition of what they mean.
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How do you feel like you've been
doing against these over the last six weeks
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or over the last three months,
wherever the time Pritin is, and why?
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So give us a qualitative statement against
these qualitative goals and let us know
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where you think you are now.
At the same time, your manager is
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going to do the same thing and
then we're just going to have a conversation
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about this. How are your listening
skills? Give us an example of the
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time that you feel like you've really
helped or a time where you've really struggled
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understanding one of your reps. and
now our manager is going to do something
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similar, because our manager did skip
level. One on ones. They have
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a really good sense of the people
on your team and how they feel about
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you. And now we can triangulate
a perspective here and we can come up
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with not necessarily a quantitative scale all
the time of one to ten. It
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would be nice if we could.
But we have an action plan in place
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to say here's what you're doing well, here's a soft spot that we need
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to work on and here's how we're
going to work on soft spot. It's
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you know, and we can create
a pretty prescriptive plan to have them focus
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on something and then come back to
us two weeks later and say, here's
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what I did to focus on this
and here's how it went, here's where
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it's still need help and here's where
I think I'm exiling. And so that's
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the way that we try to manage
this. It's not exact, it's not
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going to be super scientific, it's
not going to necessarily show up in a
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dash board anywhere, but it is
a really, really useful way for you
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to again keep your finger on the
pulse of what your team is doing,
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what your individual managers are doing well
and what or not, and what you
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can do, how you can steer
them in the right direction to sharpen up
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the soft spots of the person agreement
again. I mean the is funny because
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we made that mistake to think that, you know, training is one size
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fit solid and I think what we
doing now we much more we have a
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plan resource. I mean we're not
there yet, you know, we think
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achieving perfection for that sort of things
is intangible. So, but you know,
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it's about trying to get better and
better and and really what which really
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to do now is with the scope
of competencies is almost developing like a learning
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path that's will be tail out to
each individual. And then what we are
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looking at potentially is it is not
just the learning past base, also how
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do you bring checking point? I'd
like to get your views on that.
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You know, I know that we, we lots of organization, are using
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a conversational conversational intelligence platforms such as
going, corus refract. I think the
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the guy that sells love to also
have that component on their on their systems.
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Obvious. Are you using similar tools
in order to US test and measure
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your manager, obviously on the different
format that you would do with a bdl,
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but to kind of kind of get
an on the Sunning of what are
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the different sequences of the difference engagements
and how the conversation should be built for
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a tough conversation with a customer or
to tough conversation with an a or a
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recruitment call and you are recruiting someone. Are you doing the right the recruitment
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conversation? Are you doing the right
thing? Indiana women, so and I
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know it. Obviously now we's covered
most of the people we are managing.
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Technically. We manage them online.
So it's not. You know, it's
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not easy offs any I think I
would like to unders on your views on
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that, because this is something that
we exploring and we don't know to go
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about it too much, and I'd
like to see if you've been using or
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if you've seen anyone using conversation or
intelligence platform, AI is in order to
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not just do the training of those
newly recruited people, but that the ongoing
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development of those people. It's a
really good thought exercise. I we do
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not. We do not use our
we use a conversational intelligence tools, we
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don't use them for this purpose.
It's interesting, though, and I think
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what we have done in the past, and it's much harder now, as
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you mentioned, in the Covid era, is we would sit in on one
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on once. We would that they
would have with their teammates or with a's
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or with managers or something like that. You just fly on the wall,
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Passive Observer. Just want to listen
to the conversation and get a sense of
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your style and provide feedback if we
can. And that's that's can't where.
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We haven't solved that in the virtual
world. So it is theely something that's
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missing. I will say what we
do use and I also sorry, I
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want to say I like your idea
for candidate phone calls, although I don't
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know if it's legal to record the
candidate phone call. So also we can
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do that and Eg get back to
you. You have to ask them if
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that wn't for they will do it
and I think most of them are because
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we kind of explain to them at
to score card and we've got the process.
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And again, you know, there
is two aspects of an interview.
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There is an aspect of an interview
which is I want to know a little
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bit more about yourself and that we
don't need to record. However, I've
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got some technical question ai to assess
your skill and your competencies and that that's
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my technical score card right. So
I'm a little perform at it for that.
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But the conversation about how we get
on Uni and know that. So
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it depends. But for us it's
been, you know, it's been a
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fascinating process because without in the conversational
intelligence, as suggest now, we've been
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recording some calls like a kickoff coll
like. So one of all, one
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of the big step of getting a
clients going at a paradisis to go with
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the clients, with one another,
founsation, and we had a kickoff agenda
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that has been defined for you.
Okay, everybody knows it by heart.
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Everybody can go into the process documents. Fine, find the document, find
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the question. Now, find that
Tom Plate for the playbook and all that
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sort of great deft. The problem
was that nobody was using it. Everybody
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was actually start right, sorry,
everybody was making their own suit. Yeah,
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how it's like I'd something, but
I'm gonna slightly do it in my
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way. Okay, so you teach
me how to make the too and it's
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a tomato soup, right, but
I'm going to add a little bit of
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Basil in Mine and then you're a
will read a little bit of pepper.
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It is. So it's kind of
the same stuff, but it tastes slightly
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different. And the prime you've got
that you want to be like McDonald.
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You know when you've got to process, particularly when it's kickoff and it's clients
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relationship and stuff. You want your
ship, your chips, to take the
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sign in different countries. You want
the buggle to take the sign in different
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you want that consistency. And it's
funny because what for really is that why
349
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you while everybody's trains Wu are,
is that the manager, the the the
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will promote the long time ago kind
of brought their own way of doing the
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kickoff, the slightly change the process
and then the train and nose or court
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of manager themselves that kind of took
what they add and brought their own little
353
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things to it on when the sirt
called, and then you end up with
354
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something at the end at Whoa.
So people know what to do, but
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they didn't really do it effectively.
And just the fact that now we have
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a session every sales there while we
take one kickoff from any we just pick
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qual the team. We record them
all because the clients aout to record them
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in session that we record anyway,
and rest of the team score you okay,
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and then we've got one session.
Well, the rest of the team
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come and tell you. This is
why as called. This is what Scollar,
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this is what was great, this
is what I've let on and just
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the fact that the guys know that
they are being recorded and that they are
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being Scott by the appeals. But
bad giles made appeals has developed. But
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basically what we wanted, which is
spot on quality, fantastic experience. They
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want to look good. They don't
make that kickoff, will be big upon
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it and I think he's draining a
sort of psychology of being better, of
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having people say, Oh, you've
done that. We did not actually have
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in the process. I think that's
great and I'm going to use it.
369
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People feel so empowered. So that's
what we look at. We thinking about
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doing it a little bit more ask
and I'm exploring so I'll let you know
371
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what I get on. But I'm
having conversation with a few of the vendors
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that have already mentioned, and more
on the CS side to see how they
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are using it. All their currents
are using it on the ceside to like
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more like listening to the call of
damn managers. Got The cold of doublitize
375
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yea, and and a lot of
people do it. So surely there is
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a way to use it. Now
I'm trying to assess O that would work
377
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for organization and how do we make
the most of it? Because the solution
378
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on the chip right. So if
we do it, we need to do
379
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it properly. So I'll let you
know more when I know. My very
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early stage, very embryonic stage,
but excited about it. I love that.
381
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Yeah, and then to hear how
individual process is can be reinforced and
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evolved properly when they're recorded assess peers
as managers as it's wonderful and if we
383
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can find a way to make that
happen in the managerial ranks. I think
384
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it's something that's pretty certain missing right
now and that's sort of this style departure
385
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that you mentioned exists across all managers
where they may they could go to the
386
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same exact training and come out of
that and apply that training in a very
387
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different way and there's no real governance. It's hard. It's hard to ask
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a record of oneonone and review a
oneonone and do the sorts of things.
389
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So there's got to be some solutions. So please, to keep you person
390
00:25:32.849 --> 00:25:37.119
yeah, it's I think you need
a little bit of freestyle. I think
391
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it's important that people can can think
for themselves and can think on their feet,
392
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because if not, you end up
with people at will never criticize of
393
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an opinion about the process, and
we want people have an opinion with the
394
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process. If they don't agree with
something, we've been doing f else and
395
00:25:52.390 --> 00:25:55.230
they convince us, we just going
to change it. You know, things
396
00:25:55.349 --> 00:25:59.390
got to evolve. So I think
it's that it's having that straight balance and
397
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that there is no formula because that's
probably an intangible again, something that you
398
00:26:03.069 --> 00:26:08.380
know, is difficult to assess.
But coming back to the selection of his
399
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Dal so you know, obviously you
must have been a situation where you've got
400
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a fantastic a yell that you think
would be a good manager, but they
401
00:26:15.099 --> 00:26:18.849
don't really want to be any men. They want to become an a and
402
00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:22.890
they they may not, you may
disagree with the carrier path, and then
403
00:26:22.930 --> 00:26:26.450
you have you opposite, someone with
a good average videa. They absolutely want
404
00:26:26.490 --> 00:26:30.490
to manager on your like you don't
really have the scale. So I guess
405
00:26:32.049 --> 00:26:34.160
what I'd like to Honorston is,
do you a process so or what are
406
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:40.039
your ideas of sorts around the selection
process of this video? That's said of
407
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:41.720
it, the circumcise. How do
you make sure there is a knock on
408
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.119
the effect of the rest of the
Dati? Because I'm walking with sky.
409
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.509
Sky Started in March twenty, I
started in February twenty. Kylie's getting the
410
00:26:51.589 --> 00:26:56.190
promotion before me. I mean without
knowing and being part of the process,
411
00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:59.309
I may get onlid. So I'll
do you. So do things selection process
412
00:26:59.349 --> 00:27:02.819
and also avoiding this out of knock
on effect. Psychology could not go on
413
00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:04.619
if I don't the rest of the
team and the gate that feel bad because
414
00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:07.779
they've not been selected or not even
be asked to be selected. If you
415
00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:11.019
would right. It's a really good
question. There's no easy answer. I
416
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:18.690
would say for the internal team promotions, for leveling promotions among str's individual contributors,
417
00:27:18.730 --> 00:27:22.690
we have four different levels. The
criteria to graduate between those levels is
418
00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:27.289
completely transparents, very well defined.
It's delivered to everybody. Everybody knows exactly
419
00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:32.640
what they need to do. But
the timelines look like, what the criteria
420
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.759
are, qualitative, quantitative, etcetera, etc. So intra a team,
421
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.880
individual contributor leveling promotions, we have
that on lockdown and I would highly recommend
422
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.390
you get penn the paper and define
those criterias to avoid what you mentioned.
423
00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:48.069
The you know, somebody started before
me, but they leveled before me.
424
00:27:48.150 --> 00:27:51.269
How did that happen? And you
can just make a crystal clear by by
425
00:27:51.349 --> 00:27:56.029
having an all documented the jump from
str into management as a trickier one,
426
00:27:56.430 --> 00:28:03.019
and this is one where all prefaces
by saying like my role in the leadership
427
00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:08.220
on the team and the stewardship of
the team is not always to be liked
428
00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:14.009
by everybody. It is to be
respected by everybody, but not necessarily always
429
00:28:14.049 --> 00:28:17.009
be liked every day. That's just
not possible. And so I say that
430
00:28:17.089 --> 00:28:21.130
I preface this because this is something
that I certainly got wrong in my early
431
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:23.849
days as a manager, where I
was so focused on being liked that I
432
00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:29.200
wasn't giving people the feedback that they
needed to hear and I was avoiding tough
433
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:33.119
conversations, and I realize that I
was doing a major disservice to people for
434
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.920
that reason. And so once I
realize that my role is to guide the
435
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.309
team, to lead the team,
to lead individuals and to be respected but
436
00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:45.069
not always be like, it change
the way that I thought about the answer
437
00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:48.829
to this question. And the answer
to the question is, first and foremost,
438
00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:52.910
you have to really understand what is
internally motivating to people. What what
439
00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:56.579
is the fire in their belly?
What is really exciting to them? What
440
00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.859
are they passionate about? Are they
passionate about maximizing their income, and some
441
00:29:00.019 --> 00:29:03.380
people are. Some people have goals
they would need to support their families or
442
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:07.980
they want to persuade, they want
to pursue a certain lifestyle or whatever it
443
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:11.490
is, where financial income is the
top or near the top of their list.
444
00:29:11.890 --> 00:29:15.009
And if that is the primary motivator, nothing at all wrong with that.
445
00:29:15.289 --> 00:29:18.089
It probably just means that the management
path isn't right for you because there
446
00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:22.289
are better and more better opportunities to
maximize income, or there are things like
447
00:29:22.609 --> 00:29:25.839
you know, if somebody tells me, and one of the things I look
448
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:26.960
out for in a manager, as
they say, Hey, I just helped
449
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.599
this person through their on boarding and
when they got their first meeting, I
450
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.960
was more excited about that than any
meeting I've booked my whole career. I'm
451
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:38.789
like, okay, you are somebody
who thinks about helping people, who thinks
452
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:42.630
about manage people, who thinks about
other people's success as your own, and
453
00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:45.950
that to me is indicative of somebody
who is on in manager track. So
454
00:29:47.029 --> 00:29:51.470
understanding what's motivating to them, understanding
what their definitions of success are, understanding
455
00:29:51.549 --> 00:29:56.339
what experiences they want to have in
their careers and why, asking these kind
456
00:29:56.380 --> 00:30:00.700
of broader questions that are not necessarily
about what's Your Five Year Plan? What
457
00:30:00.059 --> 00:30:03.859
role do you want? That's not
the question here. The question is what's
458
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:06.900
motivating to you and what experiences do
you want to have? And once I
459
00:30:06.980 --> 00:30:11.210
have this more nebulous conversation, I
can then help guide you down the path
460
00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:15.009
or paths that I think you should
explore. And that's what we do.
461
00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:18.849
So once we understand these motivators,
we understand what's interesting and exciting to people,
462
00:30:19.089 --> 00:30:22.359
then we say, okay, based
on what you told me, here's
463
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:23.720
a path that I think may be
interesting, or here's a handful of paths
464
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.359
that may be interesting. Now how
were we going to go find out?
465
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.920
Let's call the herd and let's figure
out which one of them is the most
466
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.599
applicable to you. So they may
want to be an account manager and account
467
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:38.589
executive or sales engineer, and we
go and get introductions to people doing those
468
00:30:38.630 --> 00:30:42.150
jobs and we set them up.
We set up our individuals with those people
469
00:30:42.150 --> 00:30:44.990
so they can go assess it.
Or if they say I want to be
470
00:30:45.029 --> 00:30:48.990
a people manager or in a I
can't decide. My motivators are kind of
471
00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.819
slip between them. We say go
learn about what it's like to be a
472
00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:53.660
manager. Here's how set up this
path for you. Go learn what it's
473
00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:56.900
like to be in a will set
up this path for you and they evaluate
474
00:30:56.299 --> 00:31:00.539
and they come back after doing a
little side project in both camps and they
475
00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:03.329
have a much better idea of what
the data day job is. Now they
476
00:31:03.369 --> 00:31:07.009
may think they are fit for the
role and I may disagree. And so
477
00:31:07.130 --> 00:31:10.730
now, circling back to how I
started this monolog I have to be very
478
00:31:10.849 --> 00:31:15.609
honest with them and say I really
appreciate your enthusiasm, I really appreciate your
479
00:31:15.650 --> 00:31:18.519
passion for this, but here's where
you're not checking the box. Here is
480
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.319
the effective as criteria, what we
talked through earlier Ay, and here's where
481
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:29.400
I just have not seen you display
a capacity to do this handful of things.
482
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.029
Now, understanding it's not your job
right now and there is capacity to
483
00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:36.069
improve, but you have to be
really honest with yourself about whether you can
484
00:31:36.069 --> 00:31:38.309
close these gaps. I'm not seeing
it right now. I'm happy to help
485
00:31:38.309 --> 00:31:41.390
put together a plan that could close
the gap, but that's as much as
486
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:45.390
I can do. I can't guarantee
you're ever going to achieve one of these
487
00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:49.140
roles. So if the gaps are
extremely wide, I have to be really
488
00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:52.660
honest with them and say this is
not going to happen for you just not
489
00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:55.819
going to happen. And here's why. If the gaps are really narrow,
490
00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:57.660
I can say you're very close.
We just need to show up this,
491
00:31:57.819 --> 00:32:00.779
this and this, and here's how
we're going to do it. And so
492
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.970
that, honestly, that candor is
really really important. That feedback, that
493
00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:07.130
honest feedback to make sure that people
know where they stand at what they need
494
00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:10.609
to work on. Is How you
can make sure that everybody is operating on
495
00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:15.559
a level playing field and that everybody
understands why somebody is promoted and why they're
496
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.519
not, because all this is happening
above board. All that is very transparent.
497
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.359
Yeah, this is this is exactly
what we trying to urs. We
498
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:28.039
trying to to to again a count
on with this coope of competencies, you
499
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.789
know, and and having the test
and having a leadle bit more of a
500
00:32:30.910 --> 00:32:35.549
form wild process. You know you
are. It's always very helpful when people
501
00:32:35.630 --> 00:32:37.869
speak about you know you you are
doing from vorism and we not do encourage
502
00:32:37.869 --> 00:32:40.150
and we're trying to do what's best
for the company and, you know,
503
00:32:40.269 --> 00:32:45.500
with the means we've got available.
Right, you know, it's and sometimes,
504
00:32:45.579 --> 00:32:47.259
yes, we don't make the right
decision. You know, and I
505
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:52.420
think it happened in the past,
but you know it's nothing malicious. So
506
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.500
it's and it's emotion is because I've
been the guy will try to go for
507
00:32:55.579 --> 00:32:59.970
a job and don't get it,
I said, and I think it's difficult
508
00:32:59.970 --> 00:33:01.809
for people to accept that there is
someone better than them. However, I
509
00:33:02.089 --> 00:33:06.569
did could note of something that you
said just I think is wonderful. Actually
510
00:33:06.609 --> 00:33:09.569
roached in capital in my patio.
She you should not focus on being liked.
511
00:33:10.329 --> 00:33:15.680
This is something that we do not
have in our mentor or manager training
512
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:21.839
and absolutely something I don't want to
speak to them about because I think sometimes
513
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:25.160
you spend a lot of energy wearing
some sort of a social mask and trying
514
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.470
to be someone you are not when
you become a manager and and that's waste
515
00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:36.069
of time, you know, because
you've not instellcted for that social mask.
516
00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:37.589
We don't want you to have that
infect you've been selected. But what song
517
00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.900
done is it and I think we
are not bringing that in the depending.
518
00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:45.460
I don't think we've I don't think
we need the module about it, but
519
00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:49.140
it's more like Sofia. I think
we should address with them inescence. So
520
00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:52.539
I took it at that. Another
know that that took is you mentioned kind
521
00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:54.890
of shadowing managers or getting a better
on or something of the role of what
522
00:33:55.009 --> 00:33:59.849
they are doing. I think that's
really good. I don't know how we
523
00:33:59.890 --> 00:34:05.769
would do it, but I think
this is something that the e was something
524
00:34:05.809 --> 00:34:09.760
at was probably very easy when we
were all in the office, because you
525
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.679
know when he's doing. You Know
What Yours are mentor the other ups manager
526
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:16.880
or the other coach is doing.
Right, you see them doing it,
527
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:21.360
you can just follow them or whatever, movies, your laptop around and whatever.
528
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.590
Now we are walking from home.
I'll do you know what the other
529
00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:28.989
guys are doing. What do you
how do you appreciate? What does that
530
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:31.269
new and tice? I think we
need to have a little bit more of
531
00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:36.869
walk in term of that. What
is the reality of the role and and
532
00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:39.420
what's the bad of the role,
because I think sometimes people look at it
533
00:34:39.460 --> 00:34:42.420
and say, you know, I
just want to promotion, just want to
534
00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:45.619
promotion. They don't realize the walk
that will come with the promotion, the
535
00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:50.940
pain and DFOLT and now much knock
down they will get from it because it's
536
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:54.329
new to them. And and I
think we should not look at it as
537
00:34:54.650 --> 00:34:59.409
this shiny thing, but so can
of very be very clear about the less
538
00:34:59.530 --> 00:35:05.050
pretty side of being a manager at
the out no question. So I'm trying
539
00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:06.690
to think about how we would do
it. But you, you may,
540
00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:08.599
you give me some food fall solio. There you go. And I want
541
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:14.000
to add a little more nuance to
this, like the versus respected sort of
542
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:17.760
paradigm, because they're not mutually exclusive, and I at the way I frame
543
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.000
it, and I may not have
said this earlier, Ray is that you
544
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:25.110
can't be liked every day, but
in the long term, if they do
545
00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:29.829
respect you, they probably also like
you, but they appreciate you, and
546
00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:34.190
it's really important to think that way. And really this just happened recently where
547
00:35:34.750 --> 00:35:37.099
I had to have a difficult conversation
and with one of my as her managers,
548
00:35:37.420 --> 00:35:40.500
and I had to tell him,
basically, you're not doing your good
549
00:35:42.019 --> 00:35:45.780
and I had to say like he
was making a few not excuses necessarily,
550
00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:51.130
but rationalizing a few decisions that he
was making as to why he wasn't involving
551
00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:53.090
himself more making something happen, and
I basically had to cut him off and
552
00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:58.170
say this is your job. Your
job is to do the things that you're
553
00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:01.250
rationalizing not doing right now. So
go sit in these one on ones,
554
00:36:01.329 --> 00:36:05.280
go make this happen with your team
and with the a's that you're working with.
555
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.880
Otherwise you're not doing your job.
And this wasn't a fun conversation to
556
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.960
have. And it was a little
wasn't he didn't necessarily, but I was
557
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.559
a bit more pointed that I that
I am here and maybe not emotional necessarily,
558
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:20.030
but more direct, and he I
hung up and I was like man,
559
00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:22.269
that was that was the toughest conversation
I've ever had with him. I've
560
00:36:22.309 --> 00:36:24.070
known him for five years. But
he called me later that day and he
561
00:36:24.190 --> 00:36:28.190
was like thank you, thank you, I needed to hear that. You
562
00:36:28.829 --> 00:36:30.750
busted through a little bit of a
Shell and some excuses I was making for
563
00:36:30.829 --> 00:36:35.139
myself and I appreciate it. So
we left the phone call. I left
564
00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:38.179
the phone call thinking, man,
he he doesn't like me. You know,
565
00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:40.980
I just ruined his day, and
then I heard Mac from him later
566
00:36:42.019 --> 00:36:44.780
to say thank you. Not only
do I do, I like and appreciate
567
00:36:44.900 --> 00:36:46.449
that, but the feeling that I
got is like he's he respects me,
568
00:36:46.690 --> 00:36:51.250
he knows that I have his best
interests in mindset. I'm pushing him because
569
00:36:51.369 --> 00:36:53.889
I care about him. I pushing
him forward growth because I have a lens
570
00:36:53.929 --> 00:36:57.690
into what he needs to do that
maybe he doesn't have and I can give
571
00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:00.559
him feedback that he's not going to
hear anywhere else. And so the I
572
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:05.320
would just want to re emphasize that
being liked and respected, or not necessary,
573
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:09.519
really mutually exclusive. If you optimize
her respect first, you'll probably get
574
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:15.949
being liked as a byproduct. Hundred
person is for fascinating that you're saying that.
575
00:37:15.030 --> 00:37:17.949
So we we a few weeks back
we did a session, a podcast
576
00:37:19.110 --> 00:37:22.590
with with Wendy Arras, with the
VPM A at gone. So she's newly,
577
00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:29.150
newly the new VPMA felst Vpam me
on the ground at Gong and we
578
00:37:29.269 --> 00:37:32.539
spoke at length about a style of
management which is rady called Kendall. So
579
00:37:32.619 --> 00:37:37.340
it's called radical send and what means? It means you know that I respect
580
00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:40.820
you. Okay, I hope you'll
respect me, but they will be no
581
00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:45.889
idea. If I've got to deliver
something, I'm not going to put makeup
582
00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:46.929
on that Shit. You know it's
going to be straight in. I'm going
583
00:37:47.010 --> 00:37:51.050
to tell you as it is and
you should not ta keep the wrong way,
584
00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:52.369
because we're trying to make PROGRESSI are
they will be friction, but you
585
00:37:52.409 --> 00:37:55.329
will be positive friction. You may
feel bad about something and hopefully I will
586
00:37:55.369 --> 00:37:59.800
never cross a line, but when
I say something, when I need to
587
00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:01.599
say something, I will have to
tell you. And as for your personal
588
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:07.159
development, and I think that's particularly
true when you really because really, when
589
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.199
you promote someone, I think it's
a tradeoff. You know, you really
590
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:15.389
do something messy for the carrier,
okay, and at peas, that's what
591
00:38:15.469 --> 00:38:16.909
I believe. I don't know what
they believe. They probably look at their
592
00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:21.070
basic salary and stuff. For me, I just lie better at night knowing
593
00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:23.070
that we promoted twenty five people this
year, or even more than that.
594
00:38:23.389 --> 00:38:27.619
Okay, the fact that we make
an impact in their career, that we
595
00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:30.139
change their life, we changed the
way they will them to grow. We
596
00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:32.940
then, you know, you can
setting and you look at what they don't
597
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:36.340
know as to gird of months,
is really that. That's what get me
598
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:40.260
excited. But you can't do that
without friction. You can't grow without pain.
599
00:38:40.489 --> 00:38:44.210
You can grow without a moment where
you doubt yourself. You can grow
600
00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:46.369
without a moment where you say about
already don't like the way you spoke to
601
00:38:46.449 --> 00:38:49.570
me, but then you wake up
the next day you're like, well,
602
00:38:50.130 --> 00:38:53.530
actually, maybe the form was not
great, but the content, God is
603
00:38:53.570 --> 00:38:57.760
rights. But I need to welcome
that. And that's it takes a big
604
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:00.719
man for your colleagues so who to
call you and thank you for it.
605
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.440
I think that's that's great. You
know, you definitely developed a great relationship
606
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.280
there, because it happens to me
this week as well. I went in
607
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.989
a little bit with one of our
one of our gays, been with us
608
00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:13.670
for seven year els, and he
thank me for it's a look, that's
609
00:39:13.670 --> 00:39:15.869
what I need it. That's what
I did. Is Because, you know,
610
00:39:15.949 --> 00:39:17.309
it was just that not kicking the
ball. I just, you know,
611
00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:22.309
maybe a bit of a bit too
much success recently attracted a bit of
612
00:39:22.349 --> 00:39:25.380
complacency, and you just put me
back on the rail and and I love
613
00:39:25.420 --> 00:39:30.579
you for that and I appreciate that. So I think sometimes it's not that
614
00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:32.420
we want it to be necessary and
I think you should not be done freely
615
00:39:32.500 --> 00:39:37.380
and it's got to be done when
the time is right. But it is
616
00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:39.449
important to have that friction. Is
Important to put a line on the sentence,
617
00:39:39.489 --> 00:39:43.170
a look you you're not doing what
you supposed to do. Or let
618
00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:45.050
me refrain what you are doing and
tell you why. You Start Right and
619
00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:47.929
this conversation, in my opinion,
a fee. Try Not to have too
620
00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:52.170
many of them, because another was
an joy a ball. But I like
621
00:39:52.610 --> 00:39:54.239
I like what you're saying as well, because you very honest about the feeling
622
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.760
you have when you end up that
food and you had that conversation. You
623
00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.679
Stop Qushing Yourself. Are I been
to Ush? No, have I let
624
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.480
my passion take the best out of
me? You know right the you know
625
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.030
it's like the the Engel on one
side the devil on the other side,
626
00:40:07.030 --> 00:40:12.070
that that guy's been speaking often to
us. What have I done? And
627
00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:15.909
it's good at that gay call you
back, because he that probably kind of
628
00:40:15.989 --> 00:40:17.789
emputy to feel better about it as
well, which is which is very important.
629
00:40:19.429 --> 00:40:22.019
We getting to the end of the
conversation, which is an absolute shame.
630
00:40:22.059 --> 00:40:24.739
I think we could have. We
could have carried on forever. But
631
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:28.860
what are usually asked at the end, at the end of the conversation,
632
00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:31.739
is two things really is people may
want to get in touch with you is
633
00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:36.130
not to carry on this conversation or
to discuss about how they could engage with
634
00:40:36.329 --> 00:40:40.130
clary and get your support to have
better visibility in that by plan forecast its
635
00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:45.369
attract so if people wants to get
in touch with you can, what is
636
00:40:45.449 --> 00:40:47.650
the best way to engage? Likelke, then please just look me up,
637
00:40:47.690 --> 00:40:52.360
Kyle Coleman. Unlike the and I
post pretty frequently. Try a handful of
638
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.920
times per week on topics mostly around
top of an all star and a stuff,
639
00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.320
a little bit around management philosophies and
things like that. And then,
640
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:06.269
if you're interested in finding out more
about Clary at Cela Ri Clarycom and requested
641
00:41:06.309 --> 00:41:07.469
them out, our team will be
in touch and we'll get your all the
642
00:41:07.510 --> 00:41:10.829
information you need. That's wonderful.
While it was an absolute pleasure to have
643
00:41:10.869 --> 00:41:14.309
you on the showcarn thank you very
much. Thank you so much for the
644
00:41:14.349 --> 00:41:16.349
time where was an absolute thrill to
be here. Appreciate it. Thank you.
645
00:41:17.469 --> 00:41:21.699
You've been listening. To be to
be read the new acceleration. To
646
00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:24.300
ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite
647
00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:28.980
podcast player. Thank you so much
for listening. Until next time,
