127: Using Marketing Attribution in a Complex Digital Era

May 19, 2022 00:34:40
127: Using Marketing Attribution in a Complex Digital Era
B2B Revenue Acceleration
127: Using Marketing Attribution in a Complex Digital Era

May 19 2022 | 00:34:40

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Show Notes

Marketing attribution is an essential part of any business, with long-term data helping to optimise spend while connecting the dots between strategies and growth. After all, it’s no secret that data-driven marketing plans that utilise reliable audience insights are the most successful. 

However, the increasing rate at which the digital world of sales and marketing evolves can make it particularly difficult to accurately predict how best to target leads. A consumer’s path to purchase is no longer as linear as it used to be, making tangible marketing attribution software a key investment. 

In this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host CEO of Operatix Aurelien Mottier sat down with the CEO of Proof Analytics Mark Stouse to discuss using marketing attribution in the increasingly complex digital world. From understanding exactly what this term means to common misconceptions, discover expert insights into marketing attribution in today's episode. 

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.200 So you were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to 2 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.759 helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. 3 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:14.359 Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a 4 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:18.239 revenue excelmeration. My name is onion, with you and I'm here today with 5 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:22.839 mocks to steal a prof identy tics all. Are You doing today, mark? 6 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:27.000 I'm doing well. Thank you so much. That's pretty good. So 7 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:30.920 today we we'll be talking about marketing, attribution to a pig that I'm sure 8 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:35.039 a lot of people are hacching to one dust on, particularly cu cfo. 9 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:39.200 was that the only stage of investing in marketing? Before we get into detail, 10 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:41.640 would you mind thinking us? or It's a bit more about y'all saying 11 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:46.240 as well as the company had to represent profanetics. Sure, so, I 12 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:52.520 made former large company CMO, myself who, about fifteen years ago, got 13 00:00:52.560 --> 00:01:00.079 into analytics, state and analytics pretty pretty early, obviously trying to connect the 14 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:04.920 dots and trying to optimize the spined that we had, and given the companies 15 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:07.719 that I was working for, it was a lot of money, right. 16 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:12.560 Yeah, so, so it really mattered. I was actually educated on this 17 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:18.519 primarily by finance guys, by CFOS and people who work for CFOs. You 18 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:22.560 know, took a while, but we got to a point of very, 19 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.879 very high maturity in terms of using marketing mixed modeling to prove it all out 20 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:33.159 into optimize is. But one of the things that we noticed, which is 21 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:38.599 a is very typical, is that any analytics that are human powered, meaning 22 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:42.879 delivered a large team or even a small team, are very slow. Right. 23 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:48.680 It takes a long time to do the recalculation and so the problem is 24 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:53.000 is that by the time you get the answers, the answers are no longer 25 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.920 relevant to your decision. Yeah, it so. The Way we fixed it 26 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:04.319 at Honeywell was we just over hired the on the analysts. It was a 27 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:13.159 total brute force solution. It was extremely expensive getting right, but you know, 28 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:16.000 everyone saw the value and no one ever complained about it. But it 29 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:21.039 was still as good as it was in two thousand and ten and two thousand 30 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:24.800 and eleven, two thousand and twelve. It was suboptimal right. And so 31 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:30.879 when we kind of started thinking about doing a start up in this area, 32 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:37.840 we said, okay, automation is the key and so that's what we built 33 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:45.120 what did not exist, which is a fully optimized, fully automated marketing mix 34 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:52.360 modeling suffware platform. So that's what proof analytics is today, significantly disrupt doing 35 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.840 the space, not on even from a customer point of view, but if 36 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:00.280 you're a legacy provider of MMM services, is you're feeling us right now. 37 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.400 Now, I'm just about something. What would you say is y'all men ICEP 38 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.719 to people? You would say it to we did be the CMO, a 39 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.639 the CEFO. I'll just see you is figure acculate. What was the what 40 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:15.759 is it? Yeah, it's actually both. This is not about solving a 41 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:22.400 marketing problem for marketing alone. This, this is this involves a lot of 42 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.560 different people, or can involve a lot of different people. We are the 43 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:30.560 bridge in the sense, between all these people. And so if you look 44 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:32.039 at it, if you look at the tool, if you look at the 45 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:39.159 platform, it really serves two different personas. There's an analyst persona right and 46 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.680 and that's pretty self evident. With that probably looks like for most people. 47 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.960 It's the part of Bible thing that most people must quote. Normal people don't 48 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.280 understand. And then there's a business user, part of it. That is 49 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:59.199 incredibly intuitive and works exactly like a GPS on your phone. Okay, one 50 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:01.800 of the things that is really important set of here, and this goes to 51 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:08.000 paper that I helped co write not not too long ago with Kathleen Shab is, 52 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:12.960 one of the foremost analysts in the space. Proving out the Roi is 53 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.920 always going to be important, but the most important thing today, in a 54 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:25.680 multi variable world that's full of change, is figuring out what's changing around you. 55 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.279 How do I react in response to that? And and it's really just 56 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.040 like the journey that you take to you a restaurant that she'd never been before. 57 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.480 Right. So you're on the GPS and the GPS says, Hey, 58 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.399 you need to go, this is the way forward, this is your route 59 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.920 value. Right. But then all of a sudden something happens right or there's 60 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.519 an accident or the traffic files up or whatever, and the GPS says a 61 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:55.199 really and hey, guess what, you need to go right, go left, 62 00:04:55.240 --> 00:05:00.160 go right, you know, go strot. You Know Ed and you'd 63 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.480 make the change. And that's the real value proof. Right there. There's 64 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.839 a CMO that I just spoke with. The said I really love this because 65 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:14.399 it means I'll never be wrong and and in a sense he's right. These 66 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:15.959 crops. So way to say so. So which we saying? Yeah, 67 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:19.519 we saying that you've got to soucition. It's not just about the Roy and 68 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:24.639 doing what that ton of a NIS would do normally, which is proving the 69 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.800 kindy of the campaign and the Reti as you got on the campaign, which 70 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:31.519 your tool or so provide. Is that intelligence as to how you should adapt 71 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.040 what you are doing. So Do you do? That's for sality. S's 72 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.399 always he thought of the soft twalp by cage that to actually proved ourself. 73 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.879 To look at it as a constructancy. Appreciate you, example, was a 74 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.839 GPS, but when he comes to marketing, it's almost like a marketing constructency 75 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.680 in the box. Right. Yeah, well, it can be right, 76 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:56.319 it is part of the software. You can, maybe an unfortunate term to 77 00:05:56.439 --> 00:06:00.040 use, particularly what's going on in the Ukraine, but you can orgain a 78 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:05.439 different alternatives, right and and make choices and lock them in and they will 79 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:10.399 they will ripple through the whole programatic piece. Right, if you if you're 80 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:14.720 set up to do it that way, it will just automatically do it for 81 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:20.040 you. There are a lot of times where the marketers in prove are asked 82 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:28.920 to consult with a CMO or CMOS team for several hours, maybe something like 83 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:34.519 that, to help them understand and evaluate what they're seeing and what what it 84 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:39.680 means right and what they maybe ought to do. That's usually kind of like 85 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:46.040 in the earlier stages, because the tool is actually really, really intuitive and 86 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.600 so once you once you really are up to speed on it, you don't 87 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:54.319 really need our help anymore at all. So this is sort of early stage 88 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.839 kind of thing, but it you know, it's actually one of the things 89 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.959 that I enjoy the post because it is about, you know, at the 90 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:06.399 end of the day, the software exists to serve people, that people do 91 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:13.360 not serve the software right, and that that I enjoy those conversations because it's 92 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.279 all about ultimately, Hey, this is what the data and the analytics have 93 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:23.759 to say, but how are we actually going to act in the light that? 94 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.800 Right now, I pusent. So we see we sti have conversation about 95 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.639 all measury board marketing a treaty actually easy, and the concept of DC phno 96 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.319 or that maybe you can also explain to our to all agents. Seems to 97 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:43.639 beginning mode and more visibility from your point of views, down anything that he's 98 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:50.079 nuts. You can just measure from a marketing perspective. I think that the 99 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:56.000 you know, this is going to sound like I am engaging in semantics. 100 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.519 Okay, but I'm actually really not. Okay, there's a difference between measurement 101 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:07.759 and analytics. Measurement is data and by definition it's always in the past. 102 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:13.600 Right, this happened this way, on this day, in this country, 103 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:20.839 whatever. Right. Analytics is about the relationships that exist or don't exist between 104 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:26.000 all kinds of different things that you're measuring. So I the way I would 105 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:33.759 answer that question is is that there are some things about marketing that you have 106 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:39.759 to measure inferentially. Right, and dark funnel is a is a great example 107 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.279 this. There are, I mean that the one of the best examples of 108 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:48.440 dark funnel is peer to peer. Right, what are what are what's happening 109 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:54.840 in private conversations? You are never going to be able to measure that unless 110 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.240 we live in a totalitarian state. Right, and I don't get getty more's 111 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.840 that while a Chi yeah, that's yeah, so, but what you can 112 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.960 say is, Hey, you know what we are seeing evidence that confidence and 113 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:18.879 trust scores about us and about our competitors are moving in the following directions, 114 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.679 right, and there are relationships that we can find between those, let's say, 115 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.320 increasing trust and confidence scores and faster and faster time to close, meaning 116 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:35.840 faster deal elst which is a classic relationship. And so that's a really important 117 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.240 thing, because what you can say then is, okay, you know what 118 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:45.639 we need to do more whatever it is we're doing that is impacting trust and 119 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.759 confidence scores Right, based on the analytics, we need to do more of 120 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:58.759 that. Dark funnel is a really catchy way of talking about brand, right, 121 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:03.039 but three, three years ago, right, it was right before it 122 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:09.360 was the last south by southwest, before covid yeah, ikenoted on this and 123 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.720 it was it was all about brand in demand. It was called gear. 124 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:20.480 The presentation was called gears in Greece, right. And demand is, you 125 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:26.919 know, is really the the machinery of marketing, right, but the lubrication 126 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:33.200 that allows things to move more smoothly and faster is brand. And so that's 127 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:39.679 really what dark funnel represents today, the branded image with me. Yeah, 128 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.320 yeah, yeah, absolutely, and so you're basically, I think, what 129 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:48.399 a lot of people you know, came back to during the covid period is 130 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.440 wow, you know what, this this brand thing, this dark funnel thing, 131 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:58.000 really, really maps a lot and it's not all about how much can 132 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.200 we push through our marketing automation. And you gotta have both, without a 133 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:07.720 doubt, right. But you can have a great demand operation and if you 134 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.399 have no brand or dark funnel activity, you're going to have a hard time. 135 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.240 Yeah, appreciate that. I mean we if you look at the all 136 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.759 Joanne, we've been we've been at it for ten years at the protects, 137 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.679 the false triols, fells fil else. The foot is not stringing. You 138 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.000 all try to get to the tuffed about is the autograph. You've got to 139 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.840 go. You've got to meet the demon on the tell and then you build 140 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.720 up renationship. And in fact I was a little bit against the print stuff. 141 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.320 I was such an easy at back in the days because that's what she 142 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.279 was just sort of strangled. We all were it some way, shape or 143 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.960 form, always just gonking. You know, it's just the brightest stuff. 144 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.840 We just whatever is. It's something that the marketells. I using to spend 145 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.960 money and don't want to be in you know, and I'll basically I was 146 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.799 just so, so bad about it and I was convinced to do it anyway 147 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.279 and to spend more time on building up the brands and being careful about what 148 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.120 we are doing and and the way we're communicating and what we're communicating about. 149 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:11.360 And and you've got lots of dimension. You've got what your clients are saying 150 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.879 about you, you've got what's your employees are saying about you, you've got 151 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.320 the way you look on Linkedin and you know, all those things. From 152 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.360 my perspective, some of it would actruly create demand, because people find you 153 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.600 and then I oh, this is something I need, so let's use that 154 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.840 stuff. But first and formless, we almost use it as a way to 155 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:35.399 be to have a competitive advantage when we are on a deal and basically someone 156 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.639 is looking at us, of us with strels, are competitor. Also, 157 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.679 we are part of your fact, the three finalists and all people will start 158 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.879 to go online. So let's see what we can find about these guys and 159 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:50.480 if you get a company where you can find a bit of a brand, 160 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.279 a bit of presence, someone who gives back to the community, things like 161 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.000 the podcast. We don't do it as a way to generate revenue. We 162 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:00.120 do it because we want to be on the bleeding edge. We learn from 163 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:05.960 the conversation we having every week on the podcast. But that's what thing that 164 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.039 our competitors don't tend to do. We probably are the only company that in 165 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.480 our space that does it. So would it be a plus for someone or 166 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.679 not? You know, it's we don't even think that way, but it's 167 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:24.120 about building that sort of presents that the OS are sometimes don't have because they 168 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.919 don't invest in their brand. They just the just relay on the DEM and 169 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.840 to come and and yeah, I'm glad that was I was being convinced like 170 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.919 six years ago to take that tone, because now the phone is ringing and 171 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.440 in fact he doesn't stop ranking and coming back to the world of mouse. 172 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:43.320 We we actually see it. We try to have do straightfold problems, which 173 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.080 is always very interesting, because you want to know and someone gives your name 174 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.279 to someone else and when someone comes to us Ay, you know the people 175 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:58.960 would just give us business or refer reference for business with be cmocro CEOS of 176 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.960 companies. You give them five hundred dollars as a kicker. They they just 177 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.360 laugh at you. They don't you know. So we try to do something 178 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.519 a little bit more meaningful, which is planting trace. So we plan trays 179 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:11.720 when we've got and people get to the game, you know they what's up 180 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.159 me. So I've done another introduction. I was in the meeting. That 181 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.279 company should come through your website or whatever. Watch out. Can you please 182 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.759 make sure I've got my two hundred trees. You know, I want my 183 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.000 forest to give the Gal and that guy and that all competing with it shows, 184 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.679 which is fantastic because it's for the good of everyone. So but I 185 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:33.559 think there is a way where you can actually have a feeling for that, 186 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.279 maybe more for us, because why the BB world? And and I guess 187 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.519 you know in the in the software industry it's a little bit. It's a 188 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.200 little bit of a nish. It's a big niche, but it's a little 189 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.919 bit of a nish. But I will expect to us is someone within the 190 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:50.679 COMSUMER business to really struggle to under some of the conversation between consumer and everything. 191 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.200 But yeah, we found a way to actually measure it, we found 192 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.679 a way to incentivize it, we find a way to get more and more 193 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:05.159 basically and quarter on Walto we see that preissing and then we have translating the 194 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.360 bread we which we are trying to do. We's to get. I'll do. 195 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.600 We get every single on throw he of the company to be a brand 196 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:15.720 and best of all. So we don't talk about being a brand and bust 197 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.600 of all, but we speak about everybody's customers success. Right, I'll do. 198 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.360 We make sure that's your clients. Even if they leave you, they 199 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.879 leave you, no, Stensic, right, absolutely out up. Yeah, 200 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.399 and we mution all that. Yeah, I mean, I think there's several 201 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.759 points that are really important what you just said. One is that time. 202 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:41.120 This is actually a great relationship between what you're doing with trees and brain right, 203 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.840 both take a lot of time. There's a lot of time lag. 204 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.000 Right, if you plant a tree, let's say, let's say you you're 205 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.080 you want to farvest that tree later for would right. You're not going to 206 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.759 do that the next year. You know you're going to have to wait probably 207 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:03.679 two decades. You don't have to wait two decades for brand to make a 208 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:10.720 difference in your business. But what really the reason why most CFOs and CEOS 209 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:15.080 think the brand is a waste of money is because of time lag. Right, 210 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.639 when all of a sudden. You compute the time lag because that's part 211 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:23.919 of the math, pure improve right. So you're showing everything net of time 212 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:30.240 lag. That is an eye open yeah, one of them. So when 213 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:36.720 you see a large budget cut in marketing, it's because they need the money 214 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.519 now. They need to claw that money back now, because they have some 215 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.200 pressing need or something right, and they can understand that immediate need. But 216 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:53.120 the time lag of these skates what the cost of that cut is going to 217 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.320 be the year later, for year and a half later, right, so 218 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:02.440 it comes not real. But if you show them what it's going to cost 219 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:07.279 them in loss momentum and or you know whatever, what we see again and 220 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.480 again with our with our customers, is that the businesses, and I don't 221 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.240 think I really want to make that cut. We had a very large customer 222 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:22.160 during covid still have this customer, but during covid they were approached in July 223 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.960 of two thousand and twenty by finance for a forty percent cut. They showed 224 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:33.680 them the analytics from proof and they ended up getting a fifteen percent cut because 225 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.559 finance and the business said, you know what, it's too expensive to cut 226 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.079 you. That's what you really want. That's what you want to see, 227 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.720 right. Yeah, and so I really, I really, I think that 228 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:52.200 you're right on there, right, and the Rit that the corresponding issue is 229 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:57.839 that there's a tremendous amount of risk associated with brand spind again, because of 230 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:04.640 the time let it. So if you are not recaculating it constantly, very 231 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:11.839 much like your gps on your phone, recalculate your true right. If you're 232 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.240 not doing that, if you're waiting six months before you recalculate your brands, 233 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:19.160 then you're going to have a big problem. And then there's a lot of 234 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.839 movement, a lot of change. It's, in my eyes, about doing 235 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.440 the important verse Physic Agent. You know, the demon is Urg tweet pipeline 236 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:33.680 now and you know it's it's actually quite interesting and we are married to a 237 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.920 finance person, so we got defferent point of view. That battle three on 238 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.480 Tho stole the whole quarterly piece. Like I'm going to invest the budgets in 239 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.039 the quarter, I need to see a return in the quarter. I mean, 240 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.039 how do you do that? You know, if you have example of 241 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:49.000 the tree is the same. You know, it's like if you want to 242 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:53.640 avest a relationship with a new prospect and and most of our clients will have 243 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:59.200 an averaged in value of fiftyzero dollars, hundredzero dollars on hundred. You Got 244 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.599 gonna close it in the quarter unless you are very well known brand and you 245 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.000 are the facto, like you are Appool or sex foss or selfies now, 246 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.640 and people have already made up down mind before they come to you, and 247 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.000 then then they could could become available, but they are read. Is A 248 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.839 threatn in the quarter ready and it's often the large organization at think that well, 249 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:18.839 and then you get to the end of the quarter. They've got some 250 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.440 budget left and we need to use it because if we don't use it is 251 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:29.000 gotten and then we rush about. So I think it's kind of interesting about 252 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:34.559 how there is a great sight of marketing attribution and measuring and and and doing 253 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:40.119 the anetics and and and thinking, faldable, what you gonna do. But 254 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:45.799 I thinks in some organization and sometimes too much measurements actually kill the flow because, 255 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.200 as you said, it's a snowbell now. It's a time like but 256 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:53.119 you need things like that. You Rome was not built in one day, 257 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:57.240 as you know. We've got the French setting around that and and and I 258 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:00.839 think it's it's true. You've got to build something, you've got to do 259 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:06.640 the important use was the agent which recently, and just going to move slightly 260 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.759 the the topic, came across a nautical that you shared and that was titled 261 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:15.279 Marketing is not of Ending Machine, which discusses marketing our Royy in a complex 262 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.359 digital area. So can you shore with audience the main points that the article 263 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.599 cover? Yeah, it's so it goes back to the GPS idea, right, 264 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:30.240 that you're living in a multi variable world and that most of the impact 265 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.119 is generated by things that you do not control. So you can understand those 266 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.400 to some degree, which you not control them. It's like the wave and 267 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.240 an ocean, right, you don't control the wave, you do not generate 268 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.240 the way. Right. Your job as a surfer, right, is the 269 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:53.920 either ride that way well or poorly. Yeah, and so one of the 270 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:59.000 things that the analytics really talks about, and that's what's in this article, 271 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.960 right, is this idea that you have to understand the context. If you 272 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.039 don't understand what the environment is doing, what's going on in the marketplace relative 273 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:17.519 to Your Business and how that changes the head winds or the tailwinds that your 274 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:22.720 business is dealing with and thus that your marketing spend has to address. Okay, 275 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.279 your you're going to have a problem that you're not going to be able 276 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.839 to achieve what you need to achieve. Again, going back to the GPS 277 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.319 analogy on the phone, right, this is, you know, when traffic 278 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:38.680 happens, piles up front of you, or an accident happens, or something 279 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:45.079 rain. It also a huge storm. These are examples of head winds that 280 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.839 slow your journey down, that force you to make changes. Same thing as 281 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:56.039 happening in the marketplace all the time. The thing that's really important, going 282 00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:00.119 back to what you were just talking about, is the fact that all these 283 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:07.240 so some things that you're spending money on have an immediate impact, mediate as 284 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.720 a relative word, but quick impact. Other things take a lot longer, 285 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:18.920 but both are going to be either accelerated or retarded by what's going on in 286 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.799 the environment, the marketplace. Right. So, again, going back to 287 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:29.039 your example of trees, if you take a, you know, hundred year 288 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.440 old tree and you and, let's say, if all's over in a store, 289 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.279 right, so, you didn't kill it, but you've cut it open 290 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.839 and you can see the rings okay, and some have. You know, 291 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.240 there's a lot of growth in a year and some have very little growth in 292 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.759 the year. That's not about the tree, typically right. That's about what's 293 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.319 going on in the environment and it took a long time for that portrait of 294 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:02.279 impact to be seen, to be visible right in the in the tree. 295 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.160 Same thing as true in marketing, and so one of the things that we 296 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:10.039 are, the only thing we're the only thing that I would disagree with you 297 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:15.440 about in terms of people, people being obsessed with data and analytics right and 298 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.319 getting in the way, is that it only gets in the way if you 299 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:27.319 have the wrong view of it. If you're constantly trying to react as opposed 300 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:33.599 to react appropriately right on the timescale, you're going to have a big six 301 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.799 sag back and forth right, you're going to be overcorrecting on your journey. 302 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.559 It's going to it's not going to be good. But if you say, 303 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.319 okay, you know what, the trend line that showing up right now is 304 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.039 divergent from my my ideal path and I'm going to kind of experiment here and 305 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:56.319 I'm going to start incrementally moving things in a way that should bring me back 306 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:02.519 to my main route. To value and then you see that in the analytics 307 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.200 it's actually happening that way. That's value, that's real. The idea that 308 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.960 that you can make huge changes overnight as now. No, I do have 309 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.880 the energy of the tree rings. must say, I may. I may 310 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.559 use it to get in the future and just make sure I give you the 311 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.640 trademark on it. But it is so true. You not. The environment 312 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.680 is important and you of the environment can play in your favor against your favor. 313 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:27.160 I could do both. It could be fantastic. Like, for example, 314 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.920 for us right now we've got a ton of demand in orders of people 315 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.519 are looking at grewing that business. Things have been a bit slow. The 316 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.240 market is really active in the technology space. So everybody wants to go big 317 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.599 and they wants to go big yesterday. But at same time we've got circumstances 318 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:47.039 that are very difficult, which is there is a lot of everybody's recruiting at 319 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.400 the moment. Finding talents is difficult. So right, so you've got to 320 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.440 rethink about all your finding those things and you've got to apisode one thing that 321 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.759 is an abostuity in one end. On one end can be sothing at slew, 322 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:03.039 you dowl on the other. So it's interesting. All the context actually 323 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:04.599 change things and I do agree with you. You know, I think that 324 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.279 it really depend on the people and I think my point that people sometimes over 325 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.359 kill analytic and it's not just about number and something. It can be slow 326 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.519 to start, Wiez, because you don't get a lot of results. Maybe 327 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.519 if you are it photos of quarter would actually come to fruition. You know, 328 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:22.640 there is thing that there is to that needs to be pushed little bit 329 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:29.559 harder and as a strategy. And tactical things are always good, but tactical 330 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:33.160 things and I don't know if you ever get the big box out of tactical 331 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:36.759 things. You know when you expect quick for Toub, but when you invest 332 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.559 of all time, and what's surely a wrong breadn as we discuss an even 333 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:42.519 the markets, is that you actually try to do something and you are genuine 334 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:47.759 about it, the strong time investment can be a fantastic so, speaking about 335 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:52.200 the kind of misconception, and then may misconception of some of the marketing attribution, 336 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.000 the one that I yet at six shells ago regarding bread. What are 337 00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.480 the misconception regarding marketing attribution that you come across? The must often and then 338 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.200 now I guess that's do. Maybe the maybe we would open up toward the 339 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.640 CMOS on marketing. People listening to us like giving him, giving them a 340 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.359 little bit of cruises to well, the struggles out well to the issues are 341 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:18.359 marketing, instribution and now they should fight entirely funny. On right. One 342 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.039 of the biggest ones is that more is better. Now you have to you 343 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:27.400 have to really be specific about your business. Okay, but when you make 344 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.960 that kind of statement, but in bed, be in long cycle, be 345 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.599 to be where it's long. The reason why it's long cycle is that there's 346 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.480 a lot of risk in the by decision, and so trust and confidence plays 347 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:47.279 a much bigger role, particularly in the back half of the journey, then 348 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:53.480 awareness ever did in the front. Right. So whareness, confidence and trust 349 00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:00.440 are the three legs. Everyone knows what awareness is. Confidences by leave that 350 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.039 you can do what you say you can do and that you're not exaggerating. 351 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:11.559 Trust is is really existential. It means that when our interests diverge, I 352 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.599 still know that you'll treat me well, you'll do the right thing. The 353 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.480 more trust you have, the more confidence you have from your customer, the 354 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.880 more likely there's they are to spend more and the faster they will make a 355 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.839 decision in your favor. Likewise, and you this, unfortunately, the way 356 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:32.920 you see it a lot is that when those scores, when trust and confidence 357 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:37.039 are low, takes forever to close the deal. Yeah, this is actually 358 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.240 one of the biggest problems at startups have, right, because they haven't been 359 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.720 around long enough to have created a lot of trust and offits, and so 360 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.720 the customers look at them as wow, this is really cool, like whatever 361 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.039 it is they've created really cool. But how there's a lot of risk, 362 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.400 a lot of risk here, and so they they sit on their hands for 363 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:06.799 a long time, they take forever to make a buy decision, which almost 364 00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:11.559 insures the failure of the startup, right. So there's there's a little bit 365 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.119 of a self fulfilling prophecy here. It's one of the reasons why a lot 366 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:22.000 of startups that are successful have as their principle, maybe it's their founder, 367 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:27.640 Babes, their CEO, whatever, someone who already personally has a brand with 368 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:32.559 a lot of trust and common offence attached to I think that that was probably 369 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:38.119 one of the things that happened with proof is that even before we even thought 370 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:45.200 about creating proof. I had developed those kinds of personal relationships with people, 371 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:51.440 high trust high confidence relationships. So when we did it, people, when 372 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:55.039 we did prove people were willing to listen and people were willing to take a 373 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.039 risk. At that time, five years ago, it was really probably in 374 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:03.880 retrospect, they were taking a risk on me. Today it's not. I'm 375 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.960 not it's not all about me at all. Right, I mean we have 376 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:12.319 a great team, we built great products and it's people evaluated on that basis, 377 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:17.240 together with our what our customers say abouts. Right. So, but 378 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:22.759 I would say that the other big misconception here is what you touched on before, 379 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:29.319 which is that this idea that I can look for the impact of my 380 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:34.160 investments in the next quarter, unless you're talking about retail or something like that, 381 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:40.440 with a really, really super tight turn and sit now the feedback loop 382 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.559 is immediate, or fairly immediate, and the risk of the purchase risk is 383 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.599 low, and so it's primarily emotional. But if you're talking about be to 384 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.839 be right, this is just not it's not going to happen. Time lag 385 00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:57.440 is a big, big, big deal, right, and you are going 386 00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:03.400 to have to say, okay, you know what some of this is a 387 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:08.359 long play. I'm going to need the analytics to prove it out. Otherwise, 388 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:14.319 guess what everyone's going to think that brand is just a huge reason to 389 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:19.440 spend a lot of money unnecessarile. So that is a misconception and some ways 390 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.880 more of a misconception by the business than it is about marketing from marketers. 391 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:30.240 I think that the other big misconception that the business has about marketing is that 392 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:37.480 if we put an analytics platform like proof into the equation, that the analytics 393 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.680 are going to say that half the spin is a waste or that it is 394 00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:48.559 being spent in correct incorrectly. I think that what we see in time again 395 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:55.400 is that marketing teams had correctly intuited. In many cases they're intuition in their 396 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.200 experience right. They can't prove it right, but they have correctly intuited what 397 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:07.039 works. The twenty rule is alive and well. Okay. So when when 398 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.759 proof is deployed, what typically happens is that the analytics show that roughly twenty 399 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.799 percent, twenty five percent, maybe sometimes ten or twoteen percent of the spend 400 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:22.119 is suboptimized. But the cool thing about that is is that you based on 401 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.359 the analytics. You can eliminate that, right, you can correct it and 402 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.000 you can correct it on an ongoing basis as things change. So the amount 403 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.640 of this is actually what that CMO was sort of talking about. What he 404 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.920 said, you know, this is this means I'm never wrong, right. 405 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.119 I mean he's joking, but sort of not joking all the same time, 406 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:48.319 because the ability to constantly understand what's going on and make changes, make tweaks 407 00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:55.000 to it means that you're never going to be caught out with a huge error, 408 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:59.200 and so that there. There was one situation with a customer about a 409 00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:05.319 year and a half ago where the finance team we presented to them. They 410 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.680 immediately got it. They look, you know, proof is totally in their 411 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.960 area. They totally understand it and you could sort of see this little gleam 412 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.640 in their eye right that they're like to finally put the screws to marketing and 413 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.799 the marketing team was obviously very concerned. Right they were. They were kind 414 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:28.599 of having a little freaked out moment. The analytics came back and that was 415 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.599 you know, that's usually about forty, five, sixty days later, and 416 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:37.200 that happens. It showed that there was only about ten percent twelve percent of 417 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:42.880 suboptimized marketing spin. So now the the marketing team is like kicking back in 418 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.720 their chair, you know, smoking a cigar basically, and the finance team 419 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.359 was kind of sitting there going, wait a minute, that's not the way 420 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:55.000 it was supposed to turn out. But everybody agreed that that was point in 421 00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:00.920 fact, the truth right, and so it really changed the conversation at between 422 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:05.240 marketing and the rest. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. At the end 423 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.599 of the day. It's probably a bit of to have the inten and discuss 424 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:09.559 about it. You know, if it's good, it is bad. If 425 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:12.680 he's bad, do something about it. If he's good, and as the 426 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.359 boy it seeks so well, look, mark we we could of getting to 427 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:17.960 the end of the time, we could have got on. I've got so 428 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.759 many it is such an interesting to peak and there's so much psychology it. 429 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.119 Again, I I did write down the trust and confidence and the Tree Riggs 430 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.680 and up. That's gonnect. The Tring is probably I really love the technology. 431 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:32.279 It makes so much sense. Never also though about it befo. Also, 432 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.799 if it's one of yells. You're really good with an energies, but 433 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.319 you shot so much insight to business students that I'm so thankful for that. 434 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:43.480 If anyone wants to carry on and post you the conversation with you all speak 435 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:47.079 about proof and and how your solution could add them and the organization. What's 436 00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:51.079 the best way to get rid of you? Well, I'm very active on 437 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.640 Linke then, and if you reach out to me we're not already connected, 438 00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:58.480 I will absolutely connect with you and we'll have a conversation. They can also 439 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:05.839 reach me directly on email. Mark in a rk dot stus stou se at 440 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.719 proof analytics, and that's also our Aur Url for the website. Right, 441 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.920 is pretty analytics. That Ai. So there's a lot of it, and 442 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.679 I'm also on twitter. Right it's Mark Stue is my handle on twitter. 443 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:21.079 So there's a lot of different ways to it. Well, right, and 444 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.320 thanks again for your time, mark, today's he was an absolute pleasure to 445 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.880 have you on the show. Hey, thank you so much. You've been 446 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.840 listening. To be be revenue acceleration. In to ensure that you never miss 447 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.000 an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you 448 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:37.039 so much for listening. Until next time,

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