Episode Transcript
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You are listening to be tob revenue
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Hi, welcome to be to be
a revenue acceleration. My name is Aldi
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Muti and I'm here today with Sharry
Johnston, but no, and bod memberd
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winning by design. How are you
today, Sarry? I'm great. Thanks
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for having me. Thank you so
much for coming. So today we will
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be talking about the richurring revenue boat, tie bodor. I can't wait to
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hear about it. But before we
get started, would you mind just introducing
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your set of Sharry, giving us
a little bit of background as to who
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you as an individual, but also
the company you represent, winning by design?
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Sure happy to yeah, named Cherry
Johnston. I reserve former BDV CMOS
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as leader and it's several the grind
startups in the last prayer to joining when
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in by design and then joined about
three years ago to help spearhead our Markley
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practice and then more recently lead up
our Revenue Academy. Yeah, I'm super
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passionate about helping clients achieve impact and
so that shift of taking my bb fass
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experience across different startups and being able
to apply that and help difference US company
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scales since then really rewarding and largely
what I do today. My My side
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Gig is also a holping run a
nonprofit called that I founded, called women
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in revenue, which is focused on
helping elevate with it the tacket, the
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stray across market. It's that's great. That's one. Thoughtfully. Yeah,
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I'm herrying about a lot of these
groups being created. You know, I
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was listening to a Bodcat Sectrios long
ago, who's another ladies support seeing women
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to become bold mendels, because it's
not enough about membells, and I think
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that's that's wand off. Where I'm
going to get word of the girls.
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I took paratics to check that out. So today we will be talking about
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the ricurring revenue boat type BOO door. All right. So before we get
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into the topic, could you please
explain to audience the concept of the model
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and and how it's comes to life
with the SAS industry? Sure, yeah,
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I have stay, diardard. If
we think about the BDB model and
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in what is typically a funnel approach
right where we have revenue generated in the
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profits and and really focused on that
close both and about time at all.
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What we really want to support it
is flipping that model on its side and
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having equal, if not more,
importance on the recurring revenue pro portion.
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Most of the time, when you
get to close in a in a SASS
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business, you're actually not profitable.
Look this marketing and sales cost are so
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high that we celebrate the clothes to
so much of the degree, but is
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that really where the successes there are
secret success in terms of probability really comes
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in and that reoccurring revenue that you
received from your customers. So flipping it
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on its side and having a funnel
equal of importance on continuing to provide reoccurring
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impact to your customers so that they
do remain a profitable part of your business,
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is the real crux of a bow
tie and making sure that that company
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is aligned around resources and allocation to
what is most profitable and having an eye
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on that right side. Okay,
so basically it's about avoiding boning catch through
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acquiring new customers dignity. Well,
yeah, I think it's, you know,
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making sure that there is equal weight
and tracking in of your revenue throughout
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your entire customer dirty right, if
funnel approach right, just really focuses on
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acquiring new customers, not on continuing
to provide them and cut impact. Continuing
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to understand how our metrics evolved into
customer retention, customer expansion, which is,
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in sapt's businesses, really where the
revenue is. Yeah, I'll just
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posted living in fact, we we
wearing most mow and more fault client.
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Speaking about nut for vine, your
retention, you get seen more from my
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existing customs that, even if it's
Shawn a few which I think you know,
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Chinese, easy, invitable, right, I'll do whether they'll sticking whim
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me, investing, molding my solution. So that makes pulf make sense.
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The means to be all of those, the the the the modor impact,
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the way company said, and the
Middle Enugiad be used to said, do
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you have to find any for them
and didn't make some changes? Absolutely no.
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I think that, you know,
the initials funnels are providing guidance for
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organizations to think about how to unify
and have them or data driven revenue model,
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and we thought about conversion rates throughout
the funnel. But what the boat
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I allows you to do is really
think about aligning your organization not only to
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the funnel metrics to close, but
what about close and expansion and and,
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as you alluded to, the networtension
rates that are so important to our business.
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So so not only is it important
to align your business around those growth
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metrics, not just the top of
Donald to close metrics, but also aligning
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your resources and team design around reoccurring
impact. We often see very under invest
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in customer success teams, customer expansion
teams, less emphasis on renewal and expansion,
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which can often be the most profitable
and easiest path, easiest paths to
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growth. Then on the top of
the funnel and acquiring the customer. Yes,
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the good all say is probably easier
to expand a relationship and carry on
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a relationship and keep a customer acquiring
a new one sectually quite expensive to acquire
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a new one. So is there
a specific stage? Because we also tend
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to with all the conversation while being
in most of our clients. We see
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it. You've could Seri ABCDIPO,
very large company and obviously people are a
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different stage of their lifestyle, of
the life cycle, a different stage of
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the life cycle. They may need
the difference aspect on things. I guess
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you know the model from what I'm
marrying. The model is probably more for
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a sery, BCD or going anypo
type of organization versus someone who is really
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starting to figure out there that good
to market model and be not of customers.
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Is there? Is there a level
of maturity for which you would say
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that model becoming very pertinent? And
it because I'm trying to get you know,
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all the people listening to us as
that. Okay, that's great,
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that makes sense. I want to
control my gust. If I can be
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profitable, if I can make sure
that, you know, the cost of
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setting an acquiring customer is less,
is less than what the customer is baby,
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it's fantastic. We making money.
Investor, would love that value of
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the company goes off because that value
of me sure olding goes up. CONTASTIC,
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but the question of the stage or
the question of the maturities is what
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what I'm curious about. So why? Yeah, great question and I think
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it helps companies at different stigons and
your point I would a hundred percent agree.
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where the huge benefit comes into actor. You you achieved product market fit
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right and you're ready to really scale
and and really acquire new customers and and
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have that reoccurring impact if you haven't
had product market fit yet. We have
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had a lot of our early stage
customers start out with the bow time methodology
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and rather business on that one day
one you can before product market fits so
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that when they are diagnosing even early
on how to scale their business, they
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have very distinct metrics that they can
drive through. So, for instance,
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using usering our conversion rates throughout the
funnel, you can really pinpoint where's your
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where your bunnel is leaking, where
where you need to apply skills, where
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you need to apply resources so that
you are getting not only to close but
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all such that reoccurring impact. And
so why haven't that Base Foundation early on?
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At our customers have found it super
helpful to communicate success and progress with
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our investor as well as set themselves
up for success to when they do have
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product markets in and are ready to
really run with it and scale that funnel
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all the way through. But they
have the base foundation of systems in place
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and processes to really help accelerate that
engine. Okay Akusha to should have probably
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as jolio on. How do you
come up with the name? Well,
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what's the was this process being the
bow tie? Well, I guess visually
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is it looks like a boat tire. So really and I'm blet see infinity
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going around cycle. I guess you
know, you always go around there.
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Yeah, so you know, I
think that the philosophy of the traditional funnel
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here were we're flipping it on its
side and and also making equal weight to
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the retention expansion piece of it.
And then, I guess and has a
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little aspect of plan a bow tie
in there. So yeah, and it's
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you know, it's something, I
think that that is really helping recurring revenue
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businesses and so really kind up think
about that that full and in customer journey
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and in a way that's more helpful
and than a traditional file. So that's
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just so. You just mentioned Gustomel
Journey, which is well, what's going
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next. So I've got the fantastical, though, something as to what it
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means for in town or what you
can do. Obviously the value you can
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get for your investils the village,
you can ring for your cus ear force
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for yourself. Physics, time spells
and because probably marketing, Bellson and everybody's
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most successful, the company's growing in
order that. Can you be a bit
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more specific as to how you impact
the customer? John Need and was the
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objective of the mode or from a
customers ten point? Yeah, no,
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great question. And to this point
we sort of talked about the bow tie,
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as it is helpful for internal planning
resources purposes, for scaling. However,
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I guess equal or more enduring Jear
to my heart is is using the
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bow tie to look at it from
an external perspective, from the customer,
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and what we do is applying my
wins that matter across the bow tie.
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So what we look at is not
only is there, you know, it
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for internal proper purposes, we might
call it conversion rate one, the conversion
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rate to so hands on lead become
a qualified appointment. Not Not Super Sexy
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and not super interesting, but for
a customer standpoint, the moments that matter
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maybe that you have developed an amazing
online demo that is enticing the customers and
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connecting to replevant details that are impactful
to that and that is a huge moment
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in the particular life cycle for them
in the bow tie. And so we
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were we teach in our recurring revenue
courses may on not only how to apply
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these metrics to the bow tie but
also how to look at it from the
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extra customers point of view and apply
these moments that are really moving your customers
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through that journey. That's that's the
acquisition felt right and I think the big
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pot of the model is that trickering
venue and expansion and reviewers. So we
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did translating moments that you expecting customers
success his team to to lead, you
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know was involved in actually bring me
to life and appreciate that it's probably a
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diffusion because each clients of feels may
be different, but we would, you
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say, is the best group to
actually debread that strategy and and could you
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give a small example of this moments
that you are creating? I love the
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concept. I think you when you
create this moment, as you create an
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emotional attachment to create something. I
think it's important to think about them.
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I think it's important to scale them
and I think it's important to not lead
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it to a good account manager or
a good customer success spell said, or
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good insight says or a good sets
gay to their own. I think it's
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important to tell them look after streemones, you should do that, you should
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shack in if we've got an initially
this is what we do. So in
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time of on all ship and maybe
more example of the moments about the course.
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Could you tell us a little bit
more about that? Yeah, absolutely,
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and you know you chucked on something
that is absolutely something that customers struggle
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with. Your rule in this supportient
problems that matter across the entire customer journey.
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There isn't x clear. Oh it's
always owned by x Y, and
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see that very much changes. This
is a very overused example, but I
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think in the BC world we often
think about a great company that has done
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an amazing job of having moments that
matter across the entire customer experience. Is
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Apple. Right there. They're cut, their products are incredibly easy to use.
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The moments that matter. You Open
the phone and you have hello and
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bunch of different languages. You open
the packaging and it's amazing experience as well
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as the stores are just have a
very different approach to helping you buy somethings
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that I had in the store.
You don't have to good of cauterister source.
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So they created all these moments that
matter, but it really creates required
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their organization to be set up to
someone, you know, ste jobs in
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this case, having a vision of
those moments that matter over the entire in
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our product customer packaging, in person
customer experience. So applying that same lens
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to agree b cycle in. The
customers that we've seen do it successfully either
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just have great collaboration between their C
sweets, so cro CMO and chief customer
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officer, or, you know,
there is someone like the CEO who's very
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involved and passionate about that entire customer
journey. Could help be that architect of
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how do we really understand a little
bits that matter to our customers and how
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do we improve that so that they
don't just have an amazing customer experience at
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one part of the bow tie but
lagged in another end and that that could
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very much be the reason that they're
not really little more providing that what we
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call reoccurring impact that's good and in
some of the consistency, because I'm probably
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to see you that you know,
you just mentioned like literally twenty seconds ago,
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repassionate about custom mel, Johnny.
And you know what, will we?
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I believe we can be perfect.
Everyone you know, and some things
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we still bring customers display of fact
we make any fault in finding the rate
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when we may find someone that's not
the right feet, for some reason things
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don't walk out. I'm a big
Benevo that even if people don't enjoy something
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or whatever, you want them to
almost feel nostalgic about the fancies that being
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walking. Know you at least you
want them to think good. You know
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what, if I had to make
a decision again, I would, I
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would, I would do the same
and I would go with those guys right
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and and, but maybe something else
thought walked out or whatever. One of
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the should I face, and I'd
love to go through to sell this business
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to see if we, if you're
but a model orso make sense for service
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is for service businesses. But one
of these should, I think, is
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is we face in scaling organization is
keeping it consistent. So where does the
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process leave? Would it be CR
we did be how do you get this?
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Remind us for the moments and how
do you because I guess you kind
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of need to remind people. It's
okay if you measure what or two customers,
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if you manage twenty, thirty,
forty. So what does the process
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leave? What would you suggest to
your clients to make it leave? Yeah,
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that great question and it must are
common, you know, realistically,
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for the size of organizations that were
helping with, which are usually two hundred
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people in above SAS start up stutters
are scaling quickly, the single point of
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failures difficult, right. So we
need to move beyond the CEO really into
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the sea sweet. So that requires
alignment across the executive go to market executive
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team to really have that Voice of
the customer in integrated into the way that
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they operate. And you know,
I think the the key to it is
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just really listening. You know,
I guess I can more passionately talk and
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more specifically talk about my own company
where I own our Revenue Academy, and
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so I to listen all the time
to trying to understand what is standing out
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to our customers. That is there
all hall moments. Is Part of the
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training that they get, between emails, training, engagements, certificates, etc.
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Probably a hundred and fifty different touchpoints
that they end a that they get
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from us, but only some of
them are super impactful to them. That
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really deep an impression, and so
I think for me it's in and most
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of our customers it's really keeping that
inert to the ground and really understanding what
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stands out to the customer. So
for our customers as well as my own
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process, I recommend we agree,
we read all Urg to grap reviews in
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great detail. What are people saying? What stands out in our keys?
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People love that we have freeing works
that we teach against in our training,
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and so that really stands out to
them because it provides that ability to retain
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the information that they have in their
training. The other thing that stands out
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to them is that we are traitors
use like very progressive technology to help train
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them, using light and words and
digital engagement tools, since we're all remote.
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So those are the things that I
listen for and and try to make
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sure that, to your point,
that there's consistency and in those in those
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moments that matter across all of the
team. It is a little bit of
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a challenge to get everything consistent.
But if we at least get those real
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moments that matter and make sure there's
consistency in that, in the things of
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our mean the greatest impact on our
customers actually go a long way. Okay,
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so that's, I guess what was
about to ask you. The question
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how would you translate the model into
a selvice business? Is that so feel
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you think? I mean, I
guess you are doing it for your Si
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Fin. Technically you guys our helf
his business rights. Yeah, and it's
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a great question. And you know
we don't have a real you know,
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we're not as SASS business. We
are are a services business that that serves
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as sauce companies. But you know, I liked that you do you propose
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this question because I think you know
we're we're challenging ourselves with this. The
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same idea of Hail. We focusing
too much on the cloth with even if,
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though, we don't have a subscription
model, the idea of goes back
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to that reoccurring impact. How can
we provide reappring impact so we do have
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more longevity with our customers, and
that's the key to it, whether it's
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a subscription or or not. If
we're providing all going impact for our customers,
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are going to one stay with us. So it's up to us to
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figure out. We know, how
do we make sure that we can continue
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to after that training or after that
consulting engagement, continue to provide value to
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our customers so that we have equally
that right side of the boat tie and
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our services business. Yeah, one
last question for you, Sherry. I
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think I'll businesses are for limited.
It did, ever, bring a different
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limit of service, but probably to
the same group of people in the same
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industry. We serving the same clients. Always were looking at charms because,
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like you, will lose. We
lose a clients we want on Duston hy
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okay, so we classified Chum and
and I was wondering if there is a
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notion of classification of charm in the
revenue both a model. So when I'm
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saying by that that I think there
is two categories of charm from high level
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perspective, which are what's in our
control and what's outside of our control.
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Okay, so for you and I, we probably are working with the most
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not volatile, but if I was
technology, I who are going fishing,
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we probably a fishing tunas you know, when some of the people would be
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fishing whales or big of fish,
we're fishing the web. That go very
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quick, that quite small Le Goal
very quick and are lots of them.
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And why is? It can be
very rewarding to catch chin out. Devolved
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very quickly and in fact, you
know, I think last yeah, it
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was pretty much thirtaty of our clients. So I think salty a lot of
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hundred and forty or whatever that we
started with at the beginning of the year.
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They just got a quiet, they
got a cowld and we only manage
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to stay walking with five of them. Okay. And why? Because sometimes
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you've got an acquisition, people say, okay, carry on as normal for
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six months a year. We don't
that sort of people just replace you and
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then you've got the other are bit
more little. Well, it's all right,
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see you later, guys. We
just wanted the technology of the clients.
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Now you move on it. In
fact, you know, everything that
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is a spin of marketing or says
improvement and things like that could be cut
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off pretty quickly. And it's funny
because sometimes they come back to month,
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six months later, but it still
get off a shot. And then the
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reacquisition of a new company, technically
so, but without going in too much
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detail. Is there all consideration of
them, if you can? Could it
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the quality of showw the the classification
of Chun in in the modul or do
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you see such company and Services Company
going in to that sort of trying to
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reallyunderstand and classify the Choun to do
something about it, because I believe that
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it's a very wrong question at I'm
asking you. I should have thought about
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it before, but I to believe
that if you want to increase retention,
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do all the great stuff that you've
got in the room that we discuss about
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the revenue both a model. The
essence is, although something why you using
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glance in the first space if you
are losing some right? Yeah, I
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know, I mean, I think
it. There's definitely nuances and and churn
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in our companies can be, you
know, an average church for company servicing
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as and B is different than Churn
Servicing Enterprise, which I think is what
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you're getting at. And going back
to it, it is still around hays
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or ways, even though because I
with you and we have maybe the accosition
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isn't quite as common for US ins
exactly the churn right the exact that our
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champions chart on cop common race as
complic there's a very provolving door of I
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know pet leader Cros going to other
places and so but there are things we
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can do about it, like,
again going back to reaccurring impact. If
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we're if we're better multi threaded within
organizations to make make sure that we were
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not single threaded with our champion,
that we are providing indeed reoccurring impact to
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then regardless of the executive, we
still have the ability to impact that particular
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turn in some cases. Yet of
course there's there's some that are just going
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to be inevitable. But what you
keeping are your to the ground of understanding
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why? What could we do about
it? Even with these anomalies that happen
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in the business, has helped improve
turn in our customers and our own business
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as well. But US will go
for thank you so much for you in
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sight. shorry. I'll bring under
the conversation now if anyone listening to us
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once to pulls you the conversation with
you. All you know on Gage,
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we's winning by design and was the
best way to get told of you.
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Yeah, sure, you know.
I'm available on linked in. Feel free
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00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.839
to follow me, or winning by
designs great content than our T hoast on
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00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:33.000
helping with adoptable time model and reagreeing
revenue in general, or if you reach
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out to me directly, it's as
AH ARII as winning by signedcom that's Fund
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off who we thank you so much
for coming on the show today. Thank
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00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:47.119
you. You've been listening to be
tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you
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Thank you so much for listening.
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