Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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You're listening to be to be revenue
acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software
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executives stay on the cutting edge of
sales and marketing in their industry. Let's
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give into the show. This podcast
is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your
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entire go to market your organization by
operationalizing you almost valuable asset, your customer
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interactions. Transform your organization into a
revenue machine, or unlocking reality and helping
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your people reach their full potential.
Get started now at Gong dot Io.
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Hi, welcome to be to be
a revenue acceleration. My name is Olier
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and I'm here today with Steffen headed
brand, with CO founder at Dream Data,
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DOT Ayo. How are you doing
todays seven? I am doing pretty
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good. Today we will be talking
about mapping the customer journey towards revenue,
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but before we start, could you
please introduce yourself, as well as the
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company your present Dream Data Dot Yo. I've been working in B two B
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marketing and grow forward for more and
ten years now, ever since I got
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out of out of university. I
have out of experience and pure pain.
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I've learned the hard way that it's
all you should do. Marketing to produce
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revenue. My claim to how you
should do marketing today's really you should do
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you should try to produce revenue with
all your activities. Our kind of the
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way reason and saying business that today, now at Dreams Day, that we
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are we're basically we're B two B
go to market data platform, and what
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it essentially we help people do is
to take all the touches that they have
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available about every account they deal with
and every user and linked towards whether it
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ends up becoming with deals. You
Win in this room system, the classic
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closed one. So because and there's
so many inherent challenges for for B two
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B markets, which I think you, guys and the audience here knows all
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about that. The journey is along, there's a lot of people involved and
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it can be a little bit harder
and sometimes to understand, which is we
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shifted. Things are present when we
when deal? What what is it meanly,
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that is the good things and what
are the bad things? And but
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this I mean do we solve or
do we not sell at the end?
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This is the what we're doing at
the dreams that is, we help all
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our customers trying to understand kind of
this long complex b the B A journey
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and to see whether the activity is
that they're doing our ending up producing deals,
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are are not producing deals. So
we've streamed data, being a revenue
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attribution tool. I'm sure you produce
lots of information, lots of useful data
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for marketers that they can use to
defend their strategy, but we are,
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to boil it down from your perspective, without the most relevant data points marketer
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should be tracking and basing their decisions
on. So first of all it's about
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being Impol to connect the full customer
journey and by being able to do that
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then they can also link all of
their activities that they have two revenue,
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which typically is the proble, plumber, is that you have some activity that
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has an associated cost and that associated
that much activity and cost is very rarely
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well linked to revenue. And you
know, when we have these times that
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we do have now, you see
the marketing but just getting sliced because they
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have no they don't have a strong
enough proofs. But they can give to
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the let's say to the chief revenue
officers, to to the CEO, to
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the CFO, that these activities over
here is actually kind of be your pipeline
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in in three months. So I
think that one is the kind of the
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strong link. You need to establish
that strong link between your activities and and
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revenue, just like I would imagine
you guys do with all the meetings you
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book for your clients. It's party
clear the business value of that. And
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then the other thing is that we
can see now that we you know,
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we have data from hundreds and hundreds
of of B Two b accounts and we
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can see the data that the journeys
are typically, I think the ladiest bench
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park. We released it as a
hundred ninety two days from first touch to
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deal being on, which means this
is gonna take a long time before your
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activity is gonna work. And if
you're judging you know, your marketing experiments,
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growth experiments in a two short time
frame. You missed your risk not
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understanding what's actually going on. But
you also risk, which is probably worse,
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that you don't hit your sales targets
because you know you get the timing
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wrong of the activities. So marketing
has to source the pipeline and you have
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no clue about how how the whole
function works. Then it's a it's a
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big problem for the whole companies.
Yeah, I appreciate that. And another
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question for you is around the what
we realize, and not jolley for a
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bit more of a desruptive vendorls.
It seems that there is more and more
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touch points in the process, in
the marketing process. So maybe, I
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don't know, twenty years ago or
ten years ago, you had two to
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three for decision. Make your people
involved in the decision making process. It
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seems now that our clients may have
around, I don't know, maybe eight,
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two, fifteen different person that they
need to target. You know,
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don't make an eignal move. So
I wanted to know how you are,
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how you know, how you guys
think, based on the data you're received,
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that we can impact that that more
complex customer journey. Is it,
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you know, with content? Is
it be useful to wanderstand if there is
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any specific that tics that you see
for that by your personal type of Johnny
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to be more successful? Yeah,
and first of all, I think you're
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super right that more and more people
gets involved in biotunities. At least that
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might be God feeling as well.
And I think it comes down to like,
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in the big word, accessibility of
information, because you know nowadays everybody
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expects that they're able to just quickly
Google and, you know, find software
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that can solve certain problems. They
can check out websites, see what's working,
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what's not working, etcetera. So, because the whole world is moving
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towards this exce stability of information,
there it's also easier to say, Oh,
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you should also just take a look
at this and you should take it
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of that. And the way that
I perceive, and this is my opinion,
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I think you should really utilize your
website as being almost a library of
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any question you might ask related to
your product and your industry, because there
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are going to be so many stakeholders
and you might not be you might only
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be aware of fifty percent of the
people who's involved in the deal. The
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rest of the fifty might just be
lurking around your website, being on the
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G twos and Captera, etcetera,
just trying to valudate that the things are
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working. So you really really need
you can't just squeeze people into like a
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funnel. They are a little bit
more autonomous than that and I think,
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I think you, that's my opinion
at least, is that you you need
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to address it in the way that
your website needs to have hold so much
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information and so many answers to all
sorts of questions. Then people can kind
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of self service the information that that
they need. Okay, so technically you
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would have you would have your direct
and sales and marketing effort going to specific
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personnel, but then you would have
a library of content, maybe for technical
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people or whatever it may be.
So people, it may not be in
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the meeting room or in the zoom
call during the peach or the meetings,
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but people that technically will be taking
part in a way in the process that
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would want to have a look online
and see get the information for themselves so
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self educate themselves in the in the
process. Right. Yeah, exactly.
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And actually, now that I think
about what the ones who decide the most
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a part the concert will produce is
our sales people, because it's those sales
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people who are in the front line
every day and we want to yeah,
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I think the classic terminus that you
know, sales is like once in one
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and marketing is one too many.
So every time, you know, since
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people hear a repeating thing being mentioned
or they consistently meet a certain objection,
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then sales should let marketing have this
information so they can produce that kind of
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one too many information. So we
always closely listen to our sales people.
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What are the questions that you're repeatedly
being asked? What are the objections?
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What do people may be like about
our competitors? Can reproduce some information that
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I can kind of contest this information. So I would, you know,
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listen closely to the sales people investigate, like who are the people who are
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always part of these conversations? I'll
be addressing all the questions that they might
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have. Do you need to produce
something for the CFO that talks about the
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R I of buying our software?
Does the legal team have some data protection
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concerns and so forth? I think
really you should be completely inspired by the
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ones that are engaged in your your
sales process. H Yeah, that makes
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sense. So so coming back to
probably my first question, which is like,
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you know, the different things that
marketers should be tracking, as you
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are answering, I was thinking while
I was neast week. So last week
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I was at a big conference in
San Francisco, which was good because,
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you know, it's past covide.
Lots of people who are present, as
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much as you would have seen in
a normal year. But he actually feels
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good to walk down the street and
just come across someone that you've not seen
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for a few years and just catch
and meet people. You're having a bit
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of human contact. was also beautiful. But I'm very intrict to understand how
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you you can correlate the data from
physical interaction, which would be kind of
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the events, a potential workshop or, you know, executive dinners or whatever
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you made with you can be eye
touch or low touch, versus the more
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digital piece, because I think the
digital piece is probably a little bit most.
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More simply, if it's an add
someone clicks through something, you can
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probably track them. Yeah, that
lead was created, but how would you
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correlate the two together? Yeah,
so personal all this is hard and I'm
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thinking that what you can do with
you know technology, with like ours,
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as you can say in his think
that has a digital reflection and map that
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into a customer journey. What you
cannot do is stuff that doesn't get a
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digital reflection. So that also first
of all, that means that you should
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see from what the information like a
too like ours, provided as a statistical
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framework for your you know, experience
and God feeling and what else you're experiencing,
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and it's about we want to take
you from knowing five to ten percent,
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so knowing let's say fifty, seventy
percent of what's going on, because
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that still means you can take very
solid decisions about what to do more and
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what to do less of. Now, coming back to I was also at
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hours at dissaster conference in Barcelona last
week and it was super nice to see
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people in real life again, almost
a bit of overwhelming. But you need
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to kind of as an organization,
as a team, you need to commit
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to a digital course. So that
means, for example, the people you
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met at the conferences, you need
to kind of give that a digital reflection.
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So you could be going into the
serium system and making sure you know
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down I met this person at this
conference again, because if if you don't
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leave that digital stand it doesn't mean
that it doesn't have value, but you
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can't really describe the value because it
didn't get a reflection. So we'd say
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all of these digital reflections that maybe
into the account's journey, and that means
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you don't get all of them,
you don't get that kind of one on
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one conversation or you ask confirmed and
he recommends it. Does that make sense?
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Well, so basically you would take
let's say you scan someone. You
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would just want to make sure that
lady is coming into the system and attribute
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against the event. Okay, that's
right. Straight then you can. Then
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you can slip it around. So
you can then also look at the you
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can sorw that you can do a
data driven approach to it afterwards. So
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let's say you have won a hundred
accounts and if there's an overrepresentation of meeting
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people edited at conference us in the
one accounts, then it could look like
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those digital touches were more important than
other touches, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, now that that makes sense. I mean the reason why I'm asking
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the question is because, but I
don't know for your events in Barstona,
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but the one we went to in
San Francisco, we we we've got some
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people telling us, but some of
the amount of money days are spending in
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being there, you know, setting
up the booze, then bringing the people
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in the hotel's room and sometimes even
the parties, because there is parties also
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taking peace in the evening. And
Yeah, they spend a nough ful,
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lots of money and when we ask
the question about attribution, sometimes we've got
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people looking at us. Well,
we just need to be here. This
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is an industry event. We've got
to be here, we've got to be
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represented. Right, it's about and
and I get that, but I guess
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I kind of drives another question to
you, which is probably a bit often.
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No Code. Well, is obviously
working for dream data, which is
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attribution. You want to attribute revenue
to everything and you want to link everything,
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but do you think there is some
part of marketing that actually cannot and
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should not have revenue attribution directly link
to them? Things that you need to
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do in your mixed maybe around brand
and the flag that but quite frankly,
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you've got to go to your CFO
and CEO and say do not expect the
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straight root on an investment. Does
that exist? Yeah, I think so.
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The Way I think about this that
if there's things that you intuitively know
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makes sense, then then they makes
sense. And in that way that it's
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important that for us to be physically
prisoned here, because then people can see
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me our brain, we might not
record that it was here that they saw
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the brand. So I think I
normally always tell people to first of all
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you need to build up a story
of why does this make sense? Yeah,
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and then if you didn't try this
story against your the people in your
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company and you know, tested in
your team. So I'm thinking about spending
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this money on going to this conference
because I think this will happen. I
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think that is the first test you
need to do. And then the next
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thing is you should try to produce
you can. You can say maybe,
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let's maybe called it there's a minimum
viable return on investment or something like that.
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That's sometimes how I try to do
this. You know, where it's
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harder to minish. You if we
go to this conference and we need if
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we can get one customer out of
going to this conference, it's probably actually
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worth it then and then you kind
of just have to trust this kind of
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investment thinking around it. Yeah,
but I would say that most good marketing
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leaves a trace, whether that comes
in the form of somebody you know posting
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it just as a linkedin post,
or they tell you, I saw you
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at this conference, then you need
to bring that story to your team so
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the next next time you want to
go to story to a conference, you
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have that story in hand that this
cost my said this wasn't important. So
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there's the stuff you can touch and
then the stuff that is harder to kind
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of regress, but it's still valuable
and I think you, as m marktputs,
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is then responsible for doing like a
verbal handover of the attribution. That
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makes sense, I think, I
really because, like as you say,
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that's just stuff that makes sense to
do, but it's hard to measure.
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And then what we should try to
do? As you know, people can
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go to marketing. At least make
sure that people understand the narrative of our
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actions. Yeah, yeah, I
believe that it is the same for sales.
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There is some actions that are probably
would would have a direct correlation to
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revenue, but there may be some
action you want to take in sales that
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may not have a direct correlation to
revenue, like being active on social media,
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helping others, you know, running
communities and things like that. So,
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but, but what was interesting with
with last week is that most of
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the people we spoke to would exhibit. So they would have a boost,
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they would have they would have people
sitting on the Bush, but not executive
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people, more people that can speak
to bypasser and show them a bit of
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a demo and stuff like that.
It seemed that all the exacts from a
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client, so from a from a
from an exhibit or perspective and from Prospective,
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so so that their potentially by your
perspective, they would be in all
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the hotails scattered around the event place, you know, because there is a
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few hotels around the most peny center, and people will be going from suite
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to suite having one to one meetings. So it's kind of it's funny because
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it's kind of a place where people
go fishing and hunting. So the fishing
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is waiting on your bulls for someone
to come scan them engage the conversation.
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It collects some information but may not. It may not be information with your
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direct buyers, you just suggested,
it could be with someone at work for
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your direct buyers. So you're I
C P and then we can touch on
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a C P after. But that
can give you information to then go to
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the right a CP moving forward and
have the right conversation with them. And
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you've got the hunting element, which
was also driven by by marketing in most
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of the case, where you would
either have you would have new prospects meeting
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with your sales guys and then you've
got the last spot, which is what
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we discussed a little bit earlier on, which is it's a multi touch process.
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You mentioned the website as a place
where people can get information while having
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an event. Well, we know
that people will be there. is also
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a great place to say, Hey, Stephen, why don't you come and
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that you're interested about the marketing side
of what we do, and I've been
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speaking to yourselves, Guy, and
they're all convinced. But since you will
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be there, why don't we get
together? And there was also a lot
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of from what we've been told,
a lot of meeting taking place with basically
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an opportunity that is already in process. But we want to have a different
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touchpoint with them and it gives us
the opportunity to have not only a face
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to face such points, which is
good, despite the fact we move digital
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and lots of people prefer to be
digital because it's ease of life when your
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sales, personal marketing person, having
a bit of us to face interaction is
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also very cool and makes a difference. But yeah, so it was quite
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interesting to see how the whole face
it was an element of pure fishing,
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an element of hunting, an element
of accelerating the cell cycles from meeting someone
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that is in their journey. Yeah, yeah, I think the whole event
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clipbook needs to be brushed off again
for people. Yeah, yeah, but
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I think, and also this kind
of if your product is something complex,
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the physical meeting will be even more
important because it can be hard for unassumed
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call to to read the CBD.
Or does she really understand what I'm saying
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now, or is it just something
that they're not really not interesting? Like
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the sense of being physically together.
Actually, agree helps a lot. I
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agree with you. And and last
question for you. So you've spoken previously
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about the importance of turning away customers
that don't align with the a CPS.
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Just going back to the A C
P and all livings. Yeah, so
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can you tell us a little bit
more about that concept and everything? It's
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kind of a start a concept for
you, but can you can you tell
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us a little bit more about that
disruptive sorts of yours, and also can
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you explain the benefits of this rather
than, I think, a broader approach
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to marketing? Yes, so I
C P, which is basically means ideal
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customer profile, and that probably means
a lot of different things in different companies.
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But what it has been for us, I think this is one of
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the most important things we've learned then
a couple of years, has been to
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use it as a strategic alignment across
the company, not just in marketing,
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not just in sales or not just
in in product. What means for us
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now is that do all of our
marketing only to attract ideal customer profiles.
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Our series people are only allowed to
work on accounts that looks like ideal customer
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profiles and the products only works build
features for the ideal customer profile. So
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in all these different places a lot
of resources are going in and if you
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don't in your company have it written
down and explained to everybody why is these
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people our ideal customer profile, then
there can be such a waste in activities
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all over the place and, for
example, in the bag in the day
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we we used to sell to all
kinds of B two B companies because you
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know, if you can push somebody
to sign a contract, it always feels
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good. But what doesn't feel good
is that if if you sold to somebody
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who was not a good fit for
your product, there was not a chance
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that they could actually be a happy
customer, then CS is left with a
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big problem because they're trying to make
them happy. Products has to go off
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the rails to produce something else than
is actually not meant for your ideal customer
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profile. And you know, if
you start analyzing the closing rates of you
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know those are kind of hopefully the
closing agreation of your ideal customer profile is
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good at. Then you know other
types of accounts, then you just start
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to see that if you're really tired
about these things and everything just starts to
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float a lot better. I don't
know if that's your experience as well.
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I want yeah, I think we
do pretty much the same. So I
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would say it's that second nature.
But it's very important to make sure that
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everybody in the organization focus on the
right a C P a part purely when
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it comes to certain marketing, of
course, because you want to prospect.
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But for us there is a big
delivery center as well, so we've got
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people who are in operation and that's
why it can become an issue because when
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you are in operation you may have
to report two different people, okay,
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and then you may have divergence between
people. Okay, so someone on the
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ground may not agree with someone with
someone who is based in France, for
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example, with regional, may not
agree with someone with based in the US
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with global. But the person in
the US maybe the person having the budget,
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and they want consistency across the body
and the person in France is like
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well, no, because this is
the way it works in for us,
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Extera, etcetera. So we have
that sort of interesting back and for sometimes
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with the A C P, because
technically both of those individuals are important to
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us. But at some points we
it's it's more about how do we manage
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the communication in an in an event
of the nature and conflict management. So
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it could because sometimes its conflict is
not again, for us, when we're
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in your delivery phase, it's thought
about US creating the conflict. It could
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be an individual wanting something slightly different
versus the Enterprise Agreement that you've got with
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an organization, and that's kind of
difficult because if you change what you are
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doing, you're just so so.
Yes, so the concept is kind of
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well established at operatics, but we
still find it challenging because I guess for
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us it's slightly different and just normal
sales process. We just held one person
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it could be and the project of
changing. So I c peak and so
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not the A C P itself.
You will still remain the same function and
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the same individual, the same title, if you will, but the individual
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can change. Yeah, so it's
more about how do we what do we
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do when the trigger is pulled on
an a c pin change, and how
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do we manage that changed, that
change, and how do we make sure
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that? I mean it's almost like
a change management process that you need to
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communicate and you need to make sure
that everybody understands why things are as they
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are, both up and both down. And Yeah, in the organization.
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Yeah, our a CP is very
straightforward. You know, you've got people
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wore managing the PNL. In a
small company, that would be a CEO.
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In a large organization, that could
be a managing director, that could
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be someone who is responsible for a
business you need, or for for regional
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territory. Then you've got the people
who are responsible for marketing, because usually
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these are the people who have the
budget for us, for Operatics, and
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then you've got yourselves, people who
are the receiving it. Okay, well,
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when you speak to the top,
you really want to speak about our
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marketing and sales should work better together. We speak about accelerating cell cycle,
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increasing average gail value. When you
speak to marketing, often marketing people will
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tell you part really, if you
practive, engage, proactively, engage with
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them, they will tell you that
their budget is allocated and that, unfortunately,
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even if you've got the best offering
on the planet, they can't really
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change what they've already got in place. Right. And then you speak to
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cells and the good news we sell
is that they seem to be never really
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to appear about what what marketing is
giving them sometimes. So that can give
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you a very interesting overview on what's
happening with the organization. So that's the
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simple process. But then when you
get engage with the account and they start
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working with you. So in the
sells process for us it's very important that
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we speak to the triangle. You
don't want to just speak to marketing and
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marketing choosing you and the gay at
the top of the gay responsible for the
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P N L and the sells people
have not spoken to you, because you
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want to establish with the two other
what's in it for them and then you
351
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want to agree with they should see
from a reporting perspective and stuff like that.
352
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Very important that we speak to the
three of them, because if you
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speak to two and the third one
is not convinced, or even if you
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speak to three and one is that
convinced, in that triangle you may as
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we may as well not move forward
because it's gonna be a characrushed. Someone
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said no, I don't want to
support the campaign, and it's like anything.
357
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You know, a good team of
people will support themselves if they believe
358
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that they work as an extension of
each other. You'll support your colleague.
359
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.000
You won't let them down, unless
you are bad human. Sure there is
360
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some. You always should see the
positivity of working with someone. And but
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again I think it's it's being polite. If you'RE gonna deliver us like a
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meeting for seales personal or sales group, it's only polite that you include them
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in the decision making process. They
will be at the receiving end. You
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can't just say well, we'RE gonna, we'RE gonna, we're gonna change everything,
365
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but that's fine, you know,
you do your ta get anyway.
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So it's kind of that the way
we've got to deal with it. There
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is an aspect of it of I
C P and importance of speaking with you
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everyone at the beginning of the process, in the sales process. But then
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there is an ongoing customer success is
keeping our customer success till very busy,
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which is well dealing with the changes, New People coming in with another way
371
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of thinking, etcetera, etcetera.
Yeah, and you need to constantly check
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in with everybody. And I like
speaking of your case. I normally always
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tell marketers that the quickest way to
improve the turn on adspent is to become
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good friends, but the sales team, because you can handle over a thousand
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needs. But if the sales people
don't want to work on these leads,
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you know, then you're still not
going to have any profit on your own.
377
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Absolutely well, and we see that. We see that with everything you
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know. We see that with content
indication, we see it with with with
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lots of marketing functions. They could
be internal or they could be external vendors.
380
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Just people are creating leads. There
are identifying maybe an interesting information or
381
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a priority of someone looking into something
that may not need that they are ready
382
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.519
to buy. We've got to be
careful that. You know, marketing is
383
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not only at least in my perspective, marketing is not only perceived as someone
384
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who just deliver business to sells,
because, if why would you need sellers?
385
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Always right. I think what marketing
is supposed to do is to give
386
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you indication of where you should prioritize
your time, which is kind of the
387
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the syndication, and you know,
the priority engine that you would see in
388
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.720
the market. What they can tell
you with looking at your content or content
389
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similar to what you do. And
then you need to turn that around into
390
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a practive approach. Right, you
need to to your point. You need
391
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to identify all the right people.
You want to speak to the business,
392
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.119
the finance business led person and discuss
the business case with them. What's the
393
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return from a financial perspective? You
want to speak to the technical guy and
394
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also tell them that when implement your
solution they won't have to work extra time,
395
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.279
they won't have to work overnight.
It's gonna be easy to implement extra
396
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.319
so that's really the spectrum. And
then in the middle you've got lots of
397
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.319
other people to influence so they can
understand what's need it for them, and
398
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that's something that is cells need to
do, I think, more particularly when
399
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.720
you go into deals and that's a
challenge because it's complicated. You need to
400
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identify all your IDP to list them
and you almost need to have okay,
401
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.880
this is the message for this guy. This is the value we deliver for
402
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.200
this individual and it is how we
convince them. So when there is a
403
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:15.720
consens you send there all around the
table. They all club and share for
404
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:22.000
for a solution. That's nice.
Yeah, I'm very much agree with this.
405
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.240
Sign up the complexity typically in larger
organizations. So, Stephen, thank
406
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you so much for your insight today
and for spending some time with us.
407
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.720
You shall have some very, very
good information if anyone wants to get in
408
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:38.400
touch with you to carry on the
conversation to discuss about dam dream data dot
409
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.359
IO. What's the best way to
get all of your Stephen? You just
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00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.079
sent the name of our website,
but besides that, then I'm pretty excep
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00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.680
on link. Then some people can
just hit me up there and I will
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00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.200
be happy to connect with them.
Cool. Well, thank you so much,
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00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:53.839
Stephanie. Was a great pleasure to
have you on the podcast today.
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00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:59.359
Yeah, likely, and have a
nice day. You've been listening. To
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00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.440
be to be the new acceleration to
ensure that you never miss an episode,
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00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.440
subscribe to the show in your favorite
podcast player. Thank you so much for
417
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.680
listening. Until next time. This
podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers
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your entire go to market your organization
by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your
419
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customer interactions. Transform your organization into
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your people reach their full potential.
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