131: Mapping the Customer Journey Towards Revenue

July 14, 2022 00:29:31
131: Mapping the Customer Journey Towards Revenue
B2B Revenue Acceleration
131: Mapping the Customer Journey Towards Revenue

Jul 14 2022 | 00:29:31

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Show Notes

Understanding the ideal customer’s journey is paramount when building and launching a marketing plan, allowing you to influence their decision with various touch points along the way.

It should go without saying that data and marketing go hand-in-hand, particularly when creating a strategy that not only engages, but converts.

Creating targeted content aimed at your business’s ideal customer profile (ICP) is not as simple as it may seem. First, you must understand who is of value to your business, and then map out their journey before understanding how your marketing tactics can positively impact the steps towards revenue.

In the latest episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host Aurelien Mottier (Co-Founder and CEO of Operatix) sat do wn with Steffen Hedebrandt (Co-founder at Dreamdata.io) to discuss how to go about mapping the customer journey toward revenue.

Listen in to their conversation, with critical points including what data should be used to define a marketing strategy, the importance of creating a detailed ICP and why you should turn away customers that don’t align with it. 

Interested in this topic? You can find out more about customer journeys here

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:06.080 You're listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software 2 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:10.279 executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's 3 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:15.160 give into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your 4 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:21.519 entire go to market your organization by operationalizing you almost valuable asset, your customer 5 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:27.399 interactions. Transform your organization into a revenue machine, or unlocking reality and helping 6 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:31.920 your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io. 7 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.520 Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Olier 8 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:41.119 and I'm here today with Steffen headed brand, with CO founder at Dream Data, 9 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.840 DOT Ayo. How are you doing todays seven? I am doing pretty 10 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:49.399 good. Today we will be talking about mapping the customer journey towards revenue, 11 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:53.119 but before we start, could you please introduce yourself, as well as the 12 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:58.000 company your present Dream Data Dot Yo. I've been working in B two B 13 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:00.799 marketing and grow forward for more and ten years now, ever since I got 14 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:04.760 out of out of university. I have out of experience and pure pain. 15 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.719 I've learned the hard way that it's all you should do. Marketing to produce 16 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:14.439 revenue. My claim to how you should do marketing today's really you should do 17 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:19.200 you should try to produce revenue with all your activities. Our kind of the 18 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.959 way reason and saying business that today, now at Dreams Day, that we 19 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.599 are we're basically we're B two B go to market data platform, and what 20 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:32.799 it essentially we help people do is to take all the touches that they have 21 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:38.120 available about every account they deal with and every user and linked towards whether it 22 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.239 ends up becoming with deals. You Win in this room system, the classic 23 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:48.680 closed one. So because and there's so many inherent challenges for for B two 24 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:52.239 B markets, which I think you, guys and the audience here knows all 25 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:56.120 about that. The journey is along, there's a lot of people involved and 26 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.840 it can be a little bit harder and sometimes to understand, which is we 27 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.640 shifted. Things are present when we when deal? What what is it meanly, 28 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:06.319 that is the good things and what are the bad things? And but 29 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:08.599 this I mean do we solve or do we not sell at the end? 30 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.280 This is the what we're doing at the dreams that is, we help all 31 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.159 our customers trying to understand kind of this long complex b the B A journey 32 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:22.199 and to see whether the activity is that they're doing our ending up producing deals, 33 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.599 are are not producing deals. So we've streamed data, being a revenue 34 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:30.719 attribution tool. I'm sure you produce lots of information, lots of useful data 35 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.680 for marketers that they can use to defend their strategy, but we are, 36 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.520 to boil it down from your perspective, without the most relevant data points marketer 37 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:46.319 should be tracking and basing their decisions on. So first of all it's about 38 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:53.360 being Impol to connect the full customer journey and by being able to do that 39 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.199 then they can also link all of their activities that they have two revenue, 40 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:01.120 which typically is the proble, plumber, is that you have some activity that 41 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:07.360 has an associated cost and that associated that much activity and cost is very rarely 42 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:13.360 well linked to revenue. And you know, when we have these times that 43 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.800 we do have now, you see the marketing but just getting sliced because they 44 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.840 have no they don't have a strong enough proofs. But they can give to 45 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.439 the let's say to the chief revenue officers, to to the CEO, to 46 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:29.960 the CFO, that these activities over here is actually kind of be your pipeline 47 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.680 in in three months. So I think that one is the kind of the 48 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:38.840 strong link. You need to establish that strong link between your activities and and 49 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.800 revenue, just like I would imagine you guys do with all the meetings you 50 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:46.240 book for your clients. It's party clear the business value of that. And 51 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.599 then the other thing is that we can see now that we you know, 52 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.120 we have data from hundreds and hundreds of of B Two b accounts and we 53 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:59.560 can see the data that the journeys are typically, I think the ladiest bench 54 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.120 park. We released it as a hundred ninety two days from first touch to 55 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:08.120 deal being on, which means this is gonna take a long time before your 56 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:13.439 activity is gonna work. And if you're judging you know, your marketing experiments, 57 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.680 growth experiments in a two short time frame. You missed your risk not 58 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:21.279 understanding what's actually going on. But you also risk, which is probably worse, 59 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:25.959 that you don't hit your sales targets because you know you get the timing 60 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:30.199 wrong of the activities. So marketing has to source the pipeline and you have 61 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:34.279 no clue about how how the whole function works. Then it's a it's a 62 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:40.160 big problem for the whole companies. Yeah, I appreciate that. And another 63 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.720 question for you is around the what we realize, and not jolley for a 64 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.480 bit more of a desruptive vendorls. It seems that there is more and more 65 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:53.000 touch points in the process, in the marketing process. So maybe, I 66 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.000 don't know, twenty years ago or ten years ago, you had two to 67 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.000 three for decision. Make your people involved in the decision making process. It 68 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:05.240 seems now that our clients may have around, I don't know, maybe eight, 69 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:09.319 two, fifteen different person that they need to target. You know, 70 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.480 don't make an eignal move. So I wanted to know how you are, 71 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.800 how you know, how you guys think, based on the data you're received, 72 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.040 that we can impact that that more complex customer journey. Is it, 73 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:23.639 you know, with content? Is it be useful to wanderstand if there is 74 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:28.519 any specific that tics that you see for that by your personal type of Johnny 75 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:31.639 to be more successful? Yeah, and first of all, I think you're 76 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:36.439 super right that more and more people gets involved in biotunities. At least that 77 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:42.240 might be God feeling as well. And I think it comes down to like, 78 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.639 in the big word, accessibility of information, because you know nowadays everybody 79 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:50.560 expects that they're able to just quickly Google and, you know, find software 80 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:55.120 that can solve certain problems. They can check out websites, see what's working, 81 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.720 what's not working, etcetera. So, because the whole world is moving 82 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:02.120 towards this exce stability of information, there it's also easier to say, Oh, 83 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.240 you should also just take a look at this and you should take it 84 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:10.120 of that. And the way that I perceive, and this is my opinion, 85 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.800 I think you should really utilize your website as being almost a library of 86 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.279 any question you might ask related to your product and your industry, because there 87 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.000 are going to be so many stakeholders and you might not be you might only 88 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.240 be aware of fifty percent of the people who's involved in the deal. The 89 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.959 rest of the fifty might just be lurking around your website, being on the 90 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.319 G twos and Captera, etcetera, just trying to valudate that the things are 91 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.240 working. So you really really need you can't just squeeze people into like a 92 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.439 funnel. They are a little bit more autonomous than that and I think, 93 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.079 I think you, that's my opinion at least, is that you you need 94 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.839 to address it in the way that your website needs to have hold so much 95 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:56.839 information and so many answers to all sorts of questions. Then people can kind 96 00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:00.680 of self service the information that that they need. Okay, so technically you 97 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.120 would have you would have your direct and sales and marketing effort going to specific 98 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:11.000 personnel, but then you would have a library of content, maybe for technical 99 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.079 people or whatever it may be. So people, it may not be in 100 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.759 the meeting room or in the zoom call during the peach or the meetings, 101 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:25.519 but people that technically will be taking part in a way in the process that 102 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.480 would want to have a look online and see get the information for themselves so 103 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.319 self educate themselves in the in the process. Right. Yeah, exactly. 104 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:36.319 And actually, now that I think about what the ones who decide the most 105 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.800 a part the concert will produce is our sales people, because it's those sales 106 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:46.560 people who are in the front line every day and we want to yeah, 107 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.920 I think the classic terminus that you know, sales is like once in one 108 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.360 and marketing is one too many. So every time, you know, since 109 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:59.920 people hear a repeating thing being mentioned or they consistently meet a certain objection, 110 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.519 then sales should let marketing have this information so they can produce that kind of 111 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.279 one too many information. So we always closely listen to our sales people. 112 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.680 What are the questions that you're repeatedly being asked? What are the objections? 113 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:18.720 What do people may be like about our competitors? Can reproduce some information that 114 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.879 I can kind of contest this information. So I would, you know, 115 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.920 listen closely to the sales people investigate, like who are the people who are 116 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:33.039 always part of these conversations? I'll be addressing all the questions that they might 117 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.480 have. Do you need to produce something for the CFO that talks about the 118 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.039 R I of buying our software? Does the legal team have some data protection 119 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:46.799 concerns and so forth? I think really you should be completely inspired by the 120 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.759 ones that are engaged in your your sales process. H Yeah, that makes 121 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.000 sense. So so coming back to probably my first question, which is like, 122 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.279 you know, the different things that marketers should be tracking, as you 123 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.799 are answering, I was thinking while I was neast week. So last week 124 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.240 I was at a big conference in San Francisco, which was good because, 125 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.679 you know, it's past covide. Lots of people who are present, as 126 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:09.879 much as you would have seen in a normal year. But he actually feels 127 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.879 good to walk down the street and just come across someone that you've not seen 128 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.039 for a few years and just catch and meet people. You're having a bit 129 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.919 of human contact. was also beautiful. But I'm very intrict to understand how 130 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.639 you you can correlate the data from physical interaction, which would be kind of 131 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.879 the events, a potential workshop or, you know, executive dinners or whatever 132 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:33.399 you made with you can be eye touch or low touch, versus the more 133 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.879 digital piece, because I think the digital piece is probably a little bit most. 134 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.759 More simply, if it's an add someone clicks through something, you can 135 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:46.080 probably track them. Yeah, that lead was created, but how would you 136 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:54.200 correlate the two together? Yeah, so personal all this is hard and I'm 137 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.120 thinking that what you can do with you know technology, with like ours, 138 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.320 as you can say in his think that has a digital reflection and map that 139 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:07.360 into a customer journey. What you cannot do is stuff that doesn't get a 140 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:11.960 digital reflection. So that also first of all, that means that you should 141 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.559 see from what the information like a too like ours, provided as a statistical 142 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.960 framework for your you know, experience and God feeling and what else you're experiencing, 143 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.240 and it's about we want to take you from knowing five to ten percent, 144 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.759 so knowing let's say fifty, seventy percent of what's going on, because 145 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.879 that still means you can take very solid decisions about what to do more and 146 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.399 what to do less of. Now, coming back to I was also at 147 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.799 hours at dissaster conference in Barcelona last week and it was super nice to see 148 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:48.519 people in real life again, almost a bit of overwhelming. But you need 149 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.720 to kind of as an organization, as a team, you need to commit 150 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.759 to a digital course. So that means, for example, the people you 151 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.879 met at the conferences, you need to kind of give that a digital reflection. 152 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.039 So you could be going into the serium system and making sure you know 153 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:09.279 down I met this person at this conference again, because if if you don't 154 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:16.080 leave that digital stand it doesn't mean that it doesn't have value, but you 155 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.120 can't really describe the value because it didn't get a reflection. So we'd say 156 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.919 all of these digital reflections that maybe into the account's journey, and that means 157 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.960 you don't get all of them, you don't get that kind of one on 158 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:33.200 one conversation or you ask confirmed and he recommends it. Does that make sense? 159 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.720 Well, so basically you would take let's say you scan someone. You 160 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.919 would just want to make sure that lady is coming into the system and attribute 161 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.759 against the event. Okay, that's right. Straight then you can. Then 162 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.360 you can slip it around. So you can then also look at the you 163 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.600 can sorw that you can do a data driven approach to it afterwards. So 164 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.840 let's say you have won a hundred accounts and if there's an overrepresentation of meeting 165 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:03.360 people edited at conference us in the one accounts, then it could look like 166 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:09.600 those digital touches were more important than other touches, if that makes sense. 167 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.879 Yeah, now that that makes sense. I mean the reason why I'm asking 168 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.279 the question is because, but I don't know for your events in Barstona, 169 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.080 but the one we went to in San Francisco, we we we've got some 170 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:24.039 people telling us, but some of the amount of money days are spending in 171 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.919 being there, you know, setting up the booze, then bringing the people 172 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 in the hotel's room and sometimes even the parties, because there is parties also 173 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.159 taking peace in the evening. And Yeah, they spend a nough ful, 174 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.600 lots of money and when we ask the question about attribution, sometimes we've got 175 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:41.440 people looking at us. Well, we just need to be here. This 176 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.840 is an industry event. We've got to be here, we've got to be 177 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:50.080 represented. Right, it's about and and I get that, but I guess 178 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.480 I kind of drives another question to you, which is probably a bit often. 179 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.320 No Code. Well, is obviously working for dream data, which is 180 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.919 attribution. You want to attribute revenue to everything and you want to link everything, 181 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:07.480 but do you think there is some part of marketing that actually cannot and 182 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.080 should not have revenue attribution directly link to them? Things that you need to 183 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:16.200 do in your mixed maybe around brand and the flag that but quite frankly, 184 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.120 you've got to go to your CFO and CEO and say do not expect the 185 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.720 straight root on an investment. Does that exist? Yeah, I think so. 186 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:28.120 The Way I think about this that if there's things that you intuitively know 187 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.399 makes sense, then then they makes sense. And in that way that it's 188 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.360 important that for us to be physically prisoned here, because then people can see 189 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:41.840 me our brain, we might not record that it was here that they saw 190 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:46.440 the brand. So I think I normally always tell people to first of all 191 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.960 you need to build up a story of why does this make sense? Yeah, 192 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.120 and then if you didn't try this story against your the people in your 193 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.039 company and you know, tested in your team. So I'm thinking about spending 194 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.600 this money on going to this conference because I think this will happen. I 195 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.480 think that is the first test you need to do. And then the next 196 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.759 thing is you should try to produce you can. You can say maybe, 197 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:15.159 let's maybe called it there's a minimum viable return on investment or something like that. 198 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.960 That's sometimes how I try to do this. You know, where it's 199 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.440 harder to minish. You if we go to this conference and we need if 200 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:26.720 we can get one customer out of going to this conference, it's probably actually 201 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.879 worth it then and then you kind of just have to trust this kind of 202 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:39.279 investment thinking around it. Yeah, but I would say that most good marketing 203 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:45.360 leaves a trace, whether that comes in the form of somebody you know posting 204 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:50.639 it just as a linkedin post, or they tell you, I saw you 205 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.039 at this conference, then you need to bring that story to your team so 206 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.120 the next next time you want to go to story to a conference, you 207 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.600 have that story in hand that this cost my said this wasn't important. So 208 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:05.879 there's the stuff you can touch and then the stuff that is harder to kind 209 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.120 of regress, but it's still valuable and I think you, as m marktputs, 210 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.759 is then responsible for doing like a verbal handover of the attribution. That 211 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.519 makes sense, I think, I really because, like as you say, 212 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.919 that's just stuff that makes sense to do, but it's hard to measure. 213 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.799 And then what we should try to do? As you know, people can 214 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.919 go to marketing. At least make sure that people understand the narrative of our 215 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.960 actions. Yeah, yeah, I believe that it is the same for sales. 216 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.960 There is some actions that are probably would would have a direct correlation to 217 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.679 revenue, but there may be some action you want to take in sales that 218 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.840 may not have a direct correlation to revenue, like being active on social media, 219 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:48.360 helping others, you know, running communities and things like that. So, 220 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.559 but, but what was interesting with with last week is that most of 221 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:54.360 the people we spoke to would exhibit. So they would have a boost, 222 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.960 they would have they would have people sitting on the Bush, but not executive 223 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.240 people, more people that can speak to bypasser and show them a bit of 224 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.919 a demo and stuff like that. It seemed that all the exacts from a 225 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:12.759 client, so from a from a from an exhibit or perspective and from Prospective, 226 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.279 so so that their potentially by your perspective, they would be in all 227 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.879 the hotails scattered around the event place, you know, because there is a 228 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:25.679 few hotels around the most peny center, and people will be going from suite 229 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:30.080 to suite having one to one meetings. So it's kind of it's funny because 230 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.679 it's kind of a place where people go fishing and hunting. So the fishing 231 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.960 is waiting on your bulls for someone to come scan them engage the conversation. 232 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:42.600 It collects some information but may not. It may not be information with your 233 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:45.639 direct buyers, you just suggested, it could be with someone at work for 234 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.320 your direct buyers. So you're I C P and then we can touch on 235 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.360 a C P after. But that can give you information to then go to 236 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.799 the right a CP moving forward and have the right conversation with them. And 237 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:02.080 you've got the hunting element, which was also driven by by marketing in most 238 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.559 of the case, where you would either have you would have new prospects meeting 239 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:11.400 with your sales guys and then you've got the last spot, which is what 240 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.559 we discussed a little bit earlier on, which is it's a multi touch process. 241 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.680 You mentioned the website as a place where people can get information while having 242 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:22.680 an event. Well, we know that people will be there. is also 243 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.480 a great place to say, Hey, Stephen, why don't you come and 244 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.279 that you're interested about the marketing side of what we do, and I've been 245 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.799 speaking to yourselves, Guy, and they're all convinced. But since you will 246 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.599 be there, why don't we get together? And there was also a lot 247 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.480 of from what we've been told, a lot of meeting taking place with basically 248 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.319 an opportunity that is already in process. But we want to have a different 249 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.880 touchpoint with them and it gives us the opportunity to have not only a face 250 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.640 to face such points, which is good, despite the fact we move digital 251 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.559 and lots of people prefer to be digital because it's ease of life when your 252 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.559 sales, personal marketing person, having a bit of us to face interaction is 253 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:04.279 also very cool and makes a difference. But yeah, so it was quite 254 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.519 interesting to see how the whole face it was an element of pure fishing, 255 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:14.880 an element of hunting, an element of accelerating the cell cycles from meeting someone 256 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.559 that is in their journey. Yeah, yeah, I think the whole event 257 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:25.519 clipbook needs to be brushed off again for people. Yeah, yeah, but 258 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.359 I think, and also this kind of if your product is something complex, 259 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:36.079 the physical meeting will be even more important because it can be hard for unassumed 260 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:41.480 call to to read the CBD. Or does she really understand what I'm saying 261 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.839 now, or is it just something that they're not really not interesting? Like 262 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:49.880 the sense of being physically together. Actually, agree helps a lot. I 263 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:55.119 agree with you. And and last question for you. So you've spoken previously 264 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:59.960 about the importance of turning away customers that don't align with the a CPS. 265 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.200 Just going back to the A C P and all livings. Yeah, so 266 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.480 can you tell us a little bit more about that concept and everything? It's 267 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.960 kind of a start a concept for you, but can you can you tell 268 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.960 us a little bit more about that disruptive sorts of yours, and also can 269 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.599 you explain the benefits of this rather than, I think, a broader approach 270 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:25.039 to marketing? Yes, so I C P, which is basically means ideal 271 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.440 customer profile, and that probably means a lot of different things in different companies. 272 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:32.799 But what it has been for us, I think this is one of 273 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:36.680 the most important things we've learned then a couple of years, has been to 274 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.640 use it as a strategic alignment across the company, not just in marketing, 275 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.319 not just in sales or not just in in product. What means for us 276 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:52.440 now is that do all of our marketing only to attract ideal customer profiles. 277 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:57.079 Our series people are only allowed to work on accounts that looks like ideal customer 278 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:03.839 profiles and the products only works build features for the ideal customer profile. So 279 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:08.359 in all these different places a lot of resources are going in and if you 280 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:14.319 don't in your company have it written down and explained to everybody why is these 281 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:19.119 people our ideal customer profile, then there can be such a waste in activities 282 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.079 all over the place and, for example, in the bag in the day 283 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:27.880 we we used to sell to all kinds of B two B companies because you 284 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:32.759 know, if you can push somebody to sign a contract, it always feels 285 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.559 good. But what doesn't feel good is that if if you sold to somebody 286 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.119 who was not a good fit for your product, there was not a chance 287 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.000 that they could actually be a happy customer, then CS is left with a 288 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.599 big problem because they're trying to make them happy. Products has to go off 289 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.920 the rails to produce something else than is actually not meant for your ideal customer 290 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.880 profile. And you know, if you start analyzing the closing rates of you 291 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:02.400 know those are kind of hopefully the closing agreation of your ideal customer profile is 292 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.359 good at. Then you know other types of accounts, then you just start 293 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.599 to see that if you're really tired about these things and everything just starts to 294 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.319 float a lot better. I don't know if that's your experience as well. 295 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.880 I want yeah, I think we do pretty much the same. So I 296 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:21.279 would say it's that second nature. But it's very important to make sure that 297 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.200 everybody in the organization focus on the right a C P a part purely when 298 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:27.240 it comes to certain marketing, of course, because you want to prospect. 299 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.000 But for us there is a big delivery center as well, so we've got 300 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.359 people who are in operation and that's why it can become an issue because when 301 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.759 you are in operation you may have to report two different people, okay, 302 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:44.359 and then you may have divergence between people. Okay, so someone on the 303 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.400 ground may not agree with someone with someone who is based in France, for 304 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.000 example, with regional, may not agree with someone with based in the US 305 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.599 with global. But the person in the US maybe the person having the budget, 306 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.519 and they want consistency across the body and the person in France is like 307 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.039 well, no, because this is the way it works in for us, 308 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.759 Extera, etcetera. So we have that sort of interesting back and for sometimes 309 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.039 with the A C P, because technically both of those individuals are important to 310 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.039 us. But at some points we it's it's more about how do we manage 311 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.440 the communication in an in an event of the nature and conflict management. So 312 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.039 it could because sometimes its conflict is not again, for us, when we're 313 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.920 in your delivery phase, it's thought about US creating the conflict. It could 314 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:29.319 be an individual wanting something slightly different versus the Enterprise Agreement that you've got with 315 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:33.039 an organization, and that's kind of difficult because if you change what you are 316 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.480 doing, you're just so so. Yes, so the concept is kind of 317 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:42.640 well established at operatics, but we still find it challenging because I guess for 318 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:47.160 us it's slightly different and just normal sales process. We just held one person 319 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.559 it could be and the project of changing. So I c peak and so 320 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.039 not the A C P itself. You will still remain the same function and 321 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:57.359 the same individual, the same title, if you will, but the individual 322 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:03.880 can change. Yeah, so it's more about how do we what do we 323 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.400 do when the trigger is pulled on an a c pin change, and how 324 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.960 do we manage that changed, that change, and how do we make sure 325 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.400 that? I mean it's almost like a change management process that you need to 326 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.960 communicate and you need to make sure that everybody understands why things are as they 327 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.039 are, both up and both down. And Yeah, in the organization. 328 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:27.759 Yeah, our a CP is very straightforward. You know, you've got people 329 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.440 wore managing the PNL. In a small company, that would be a CEO. 330 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.599 In a large organization, that could be a managing director, that could 331 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:40.359 be someone who is responsible for a business you need, or for for regional 332 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:45.160 territory. Then you've got the people who are responsible for marketing, because usually 333 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.200 these are the people who have the budget for us, for Operatics, and 334 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:51.920 then you've got yourselves, people who are the receiving it. Okay, well, 335 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:53.160 when you speak to the top, you really want to speak about our 336 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:57.359 marketing and sales should work better together. We speak about accelerating cell cycle, 337 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:03.640 increasing average gail value. When you speak to marketing, often marketing people will 338 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.200 tell you part really, if you practive, engage, proactively, engage with 339 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:12.039 them, they will tell you that their budget is allocated and that, unfortunately, 340 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.759 even if you've got the best offering on the planet, they can't really 341 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.480 change what they've already got in place. Right. And then you speak to 342 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.640 cells and the good news we sell is that they seem to be never really 343 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.519 to appear about what what marketing is giving them sometimes. So that can give 344 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:33.759 you a very interesting overview on what's happening with the organization. So that's the 345 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.799 simple process. But then when you get engage with the account and they start 346 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:40.680 working with you. So in the sells process for us it's very important that 347 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.799 we speak to the triangle. You don't want to just speak to marketing and 348 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:47.920 marketing choosing you and the gay at the top of the gay responsible for the 349 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.759 P N L and the sells people have not spoken to you, because you 350 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.519 want to establish with the two other what's in it for them and then you 351 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.799 want to agree with they should see from a reporting perspective and stuff like that. 352 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.200 Very important that we speak to the three of them, because if you 353 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.759 speak to two and the third one is not convinced, or even if you 354 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:10.000 speak to three and one is that convinced, in that triangle you may as 355 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:12.519 we may as well not move forward because it's gonna be a characrushed. Someone 356 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.920 said no, I don't want to support the campaign, and it's like anything. 357 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.079 You know, a good team of people will support themselves if they believe 358 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:22.839 that they work as an extension of each other. You'll support your colleague. 359 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.000 You won't let them down, unless you are bad human. Sure there is 360 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.400 some. You always should see the positivity of working with someone. And but 361 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:34.160 again I think it's it's being polite. If you'RE gonna deliver us like a 362 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:38.319 meeting for seales personal or sales group, it's only polite that you include them 363 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.759 in the decision making process. They will be at the receiving end. You 364 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.039 can't just say well, we'RE gonna, we'RE gonna, we're gonna change everything, 365 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.559 but that's fine, you know, you do your ta get anyway. 366 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.279 So it's kind of that the way we've got to deal with it. There 367 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.480 is an aspect of it of I C P and importance of speaking with you 368 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:59.160 everyone at the beginning of the process, in the sales process. But then 369 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.480 there is an ongoing customer success is keeping our customer success till very busy, 370 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.519 which is well dealing with the changes, New People coming in with another way 371 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.720 of thinking, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, and you need to constantly check 372 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.759 in with everybody. And I like speaking of your case. I normally always 373 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:21.839 tell marketers that the quickest way to improve the turn on adspent is to become 374 00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:26.000 good friends, but the sales team, because you can handle over a thousand 375 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:27.960 needs. But if the sales people don't want to work on these leads, 376 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.519 you know, then you're still not going to have any profit on your own. 377 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.279 Absolutely well, and we see that. We see that with everything you 378 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.759 know. We see that with content indication, we see it with with with 379 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:45.440 lots of marketing functions. They could be internal or they could be external vendors. 380 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.559 Just people are creating leads. There are identifying maybe an interesting information or 381 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:55.559 a priority of someone looking into something that may not need that they are ready 382 00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.519 to buy. We've got to be careful that. You know, marketing is 383 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.519 not only at least in my perspective, marketing is not only perceived as someone 384 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.640 who just deliver business to sells, because, if why would you need sellers? 385 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.480 Always right. I think what marketing is supposed to do is to give 386 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:15.599 you indication of where you should prioritize your time, which is kind of the 387 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.559 the syndication, and you know, the priority engine that you would see in 388 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.720 the market. What they can tell you with looking at your content or content 389 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:23.960 similar to what you do. And then you need to turn that around into 390 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.960 a practive approach. Right, you need to to your point. You need 391 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.079 to identify all the right people. You want to speak to the business, 392 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.119 the finance business led person and discuss the business case with them. What's the 393 00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:40.119 return from a financial perspective? You want to speak to the technical guy and 394 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.119 also tell them that when implement your solution they won't have to work extra time, 395 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.279 they won't have to work overnight. It's gonna be easy to implement extra 396 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.319 so that's really the spectrum. And then in the middle you've got lots of 397 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.319 other people to influence so they can understand what's need it for them, and 398 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:59.319 that's something that is cells need to do, I think, more particularly when 399 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.720 you go into deals and that's a challenge because it's complicated. You need to 400 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:06.680 identify all your IDP to list them and you almost need to have okay, 401 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.880 this is the message for this guy. This is the value we deliver for 402 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.200 this individual and it is how we convince them. So when there is a 403 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:15.720 consens you send there all around the table. They all club and share for 404 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:22.000 for a solution. That's nice. Yeah, I'm very much agree with this. 405 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.240 Sign up the complexity typically in larger organizations. So, Stephen, thank 406 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.160 you so much for your insight today and for spending some time with us. 407 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.720 You shall have some very, very good information if anyone wants to get in 408 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:38.400 touch with you to carry on the conversation to discuss about dam dream data dot 409 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.359 IO. What's the best way to get all of your Stephen? You just 410 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.079 sent the name of our website, but besides that, then I'm pretty excep 411 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.680 on link. Then some people can just hit me up there and I will 412 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.200 be happy to connect with them. Cool. Well, thank you so much, 413 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:53.839 Stephanie. Was a great pleasure to have you on the podcast today. 414 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:59.359 Yeah, likely, and have a nice day. You've been listening. To 415 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.440 be to be the new acceleration to ensure that you never miss an episode, 416 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.440 subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for 417 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.680 listening. Until next time. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers 418 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:18.799 your entire go to market your organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your 419 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:25.119 customer interactions. Transform your organization into a revenue machine by unlocking reality and helping 420 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:29.640 your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io.

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