Episode Transcript
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Hi, welcome to be to be
a revenue acceleration. My name is
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Lamtier and I'm here today with David
Wall, founder and CEO at Unit Terr.
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How are you doing today, David? Thanks you have a good holiday.
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I was absolutely fantastic. Two weeks
in Abisa with two kids, but
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my name in the swimming pool work
came back, so tad. That's uh,
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yeah, really had a good time. But yeah, today, David,
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with you, so we had the
conversation quite a lot about wow,
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I don't want to steal your offenders. You'll explain to audience what you do,
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but today we'll be speaking about cultural
consideration as you enter on your market
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we are the importance of that and
you've got to turn off expense. I
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think it's going to be a good
exposure for audience. But, as I
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said, before we get into a
topic, would you mind just giving a
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little bit of an introduition as to
yourself, David, but also the company,
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your present Unitarraa and what you do? So My name is David Wall
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I'm the CEO of units era.
We're a UK headquarters business. We have
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operations in in the UK, in
the US and in Asia. Um,
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we've advised an excessive five CFOs F
D S HR directors and they're wider management
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teams around setting up operations in international
markets. We typically work with fast growth
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businesses that are in a hurry to
grab new revenue and get stable operations,
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as I said, in the new
international market. So our call service offering
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is advising around whether they need legal
entities, Um, what kind of tax
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registrations they need to make in a
particular country. We run international payroll,
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we have a fully outsourced international HR
team and we also do the accounting and
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tax compliance. So effectively customers can
run their front office, grow their sales
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and revenue and we take care of
all the back office compliance. That's wonderful.
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A big, big pain that you
remove from the from the clans,
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I'm sure, from your clients,
Um. So, David, you've been
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helping a lot of these companies in
developing internationally, especially from the HR front.
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But from your perspective, Western must
common mistake that you've seen your clients
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making. Our prospect as are makings
when setting up a business internationally. So
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it's a really good question, Ray, and you know we've we've supported customers
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in over a hundred countries probably,
Um, over the course of unit terrorist
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history and we're operating about seventy countries
today currently. So, as you can
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imagine, we've witnessed lots of different
mistakes, errors, Um, interesting scenarios,
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Um, in supporting all these businesses. I think I think probably there's
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a couple of things that first one
is a lack of appreciation of the international
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landscape. So what do I mean
by that? So a lot of our
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customers are US headquartered, not exclusively, but a lot of them are.
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And when you look at if you
just take the employment landscape in the UK
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and all the associated legislation and laws
around employing people in the UK, and
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then when you think. Okay,
so that's complex in itself, and then
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you you move a couple of hours
across the pond to France and the employment
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landscape is native degrees different and it's
completely it's completely under a different set of
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rules, incredibly complex. And then
you go an hour to the left and
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you've got Germany and it's the same
again, and Spain. So so the
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complexity around going international is very real
and the associated costs for getting it wrong
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are can be significant. So so
that's one of the things that we we
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we we often see. You can't
stereotype all companies and you know, and
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every business has a different risk profile
too, an appetite to risk. But
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we were, as I said,
we worked with a lot of US companies
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and they're they're in a hurry and
I want to grab revenue and they're being
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driven by their investors or their CEO
or their their leadership team to grow revenue
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and Um, we are often at
pains to pull them back to to to
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make sure that they do understand the
implications of hiring in an international market because,
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as I said, getting it wrong
is expensive. So that's that's one
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area. Another area is is one
size doesn't fit all you know and it
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ties into the point I made earlier
around Um that you can't have a vanilla
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approach in terms of hiring. With
a lot of customers we you know and
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a lot of the conversations that we
have it's you know, we might be
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working with a UK customer and they
want to go into eastern Europe somewhere,
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whether it be Poland or or Hungary, and they'll say, you know,
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can we use the UK important contracts? And the answer is what you can
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again, and you can't just use
you can't have a cookie cutter approach to
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this kind of Um expansion project.
It just doesn't work. I agree with
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you. I think there is an
excitement around the boat table when we speak
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about geographical expansion. Um. There
is a there is a difficulty. I
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think it goes both way. From
my experience, right. So, our
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first geographical expansion was from the UK
to North America, right, and I
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ended up with five years I R
S investigation that we closed off successfully literally
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six months ago, right, simply
because from we've not done anything wrong,
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we've not done any tax but we
did not have the document in place.
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We didn't have the rights transfer,
pricing information we had something, but he
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was very clumsy. It was a
matter is the business was two years old
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start appear. We put that on
the back of an envelope and we said
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what could with it? Or Trust
me, when you deal with the I
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R S, going that tough man
then and they are not really understandable,
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you know, they don't really make
an effort to understand you and your presume
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guilty before you you do anything else. So you've you've got to fight to
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prove that you've not done anything wrong
and provide lots of information. But that
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was extremely painful. And now that
you're opening an office in Germany, as
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you know, like as we speak, transfer pricing is one of the first
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things we look at. You know, you learn from your mistake, but
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my finger still burning from the tires. I mean the emotion we went through
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through theodit was really painful. So
I think that's one thing that you didn't
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mention. That it's also important.
I know you had to train to brush
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very broadly on topics, but even
tax implication, right, was tax?
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You know, you can set up
an identity in Germany or identity in in
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eastern Europe and explain to pay no
tax and just get all your taxes back
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in the UK or your text in
the US. So you will have to
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make sure that you get things salted. I mean North America. We all
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know that you've got your copyright text, but then you've got the employee tax.
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That may differ from one step to
the other. You also need to
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be aware of that because you need
to deal with it. You need to
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be prepared and there is a great
level of complexity and I think people,
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I think that it myself and thinking
that it was good enough to do it
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on my own. Now we just
we just just raise our hands. We
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speak to tax advisor, we speak
to h our advisor, we've got local
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lawyers. The first thing you do
is to set up a team around you,
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but you want to speak to local
lawyers. You've got to, because
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you made a good point between the
international market and the local complexity. And
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then the iron issue. Right.
I could try, we could try,
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everybody could try to go and work
with German resources with the UK employment contract,
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but the German being risked verse,
your chances are for finding the right
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people with that sort of things is
not great. You will probably get the
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people that won't get a job a
new else they will accept the complexity.
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So you know, I think you've
got to be very aware of all the
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other things that can happen. It's
not just about visiting an office, sending
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a check, getting the keys,
getting in, putting your stuff and your
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logo on the wall and if you
go, but it's really about setting up
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the the operation properly, and then
you've got to think about the relationship between
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that operation and the mother ship and
how do that work, and that's what
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the tax advisor needs to come and
you need to be smart. You need
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to make sure also as you pay
tax wise due, which is another thing
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that people are discussing, because corporation
tax has been better in the UKITY.
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Maybe any while it's in the world
at the moment. Okay, that may
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change. It's wait for you for
but all those things, from my perspective,
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are all the complexity. For me, I guess, the employment for
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being French and I've been studying you
management of small businesses. So we've we've
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got HR and it's very funny because
I was meeting with the lawyer two weeks
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ago in Germany to discuss the employment
contract and the way to manage resources is
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completely different right. If someone lies
during the interview process about something that they've
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done, you actually keep that on
track. If that, if their contract
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said they only have one job,
but at the weekend they do Google driving
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or the deliver pizzas or whatever,
you may not just tell them and confront
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them on Monday morning. You keep
that on track on five right. Why?
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Because the day you need to do
something with them, you've got all
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this information about them basically breaching the
contract that you can use against them.
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Because if it's very difficult. So
it's a completely different market. In the
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US it's unemployer lets. If you
are the employer, you are the king.
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You can you can say to someone
you are sacked and they have to
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walk out, and there is literally
pretty much no right. In France,
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is the employee that's got the power. In Germany, your employee got the
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power. And then when you get
a company with more than twenties or two
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people, you've got to syndicate.
People can create unions, and that's the
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thing that you need to really look
at and that's why you can't do it
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with just your own desk research.
There is not a website that we give
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your the information. There is not
a book that we give your the information,
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because that's changing also all the time. So really getting is an organization
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like yourself, AH and hi expert, tax expert, luckily, that can
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speak to your tax expert in the
UK, to your hi expert in the
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UK and let those groups organize each
other. Is absolutely fundamental. So I
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do appreciate what you say, David. Yeah, just just talking through that
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scenario and thanks for sharing that right
in terms of your own experience one of
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the Times. Back to the initial
question, the one of the things that
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we find is typically the business is
that we work with they'll either they'll either
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have raised some money or they will
be sat on money and they're going to
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invest it in a in a new
market and they want to get there in
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a hurry. They but they they
don't typically, and I'm not saying that
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this is the way to do it, but it ties into the point again.
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Normally, you know, the senior
management attached to do with it,
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to to do an international expansion on
top of their day job, and it's
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so complex that it's, you know, and time consuming that it just soaks
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up a lot of a lot of
that time around the C suite. Yeah,
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again, the planning and the understanding
around, whether it's attacks, whether
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it's the HR, whether it's,
you know, to your point around when
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you settle that operation in North America
or in Europe and electing that back to
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the mothership in terms of how you
drive your culture and how you Um,
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you know, you your values are
transposed onto those satellite or subsidiary operations.
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It's a really significant thing in terms
of if you want to, you know,
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have a successful result and therefore investment
is required, not necessarily financial investment,
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but emotional, emotional investment. You're
is a good point, David,
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because you know that we speak about
the technical side of things right, so
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that's the borrowing part from a perspective. But you know this is this is
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to be done. You know you've
got to get the finance right. You
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need to know you're going to produce
your accounts, was gonna set the accounts
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and you know, produce the numbers
in in the country you are going and
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all that. Your contractor employment needs
to be spot on as well. So
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all the sorts of things are important, but you just kind of touched onto
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the emotional and for me I would
just almost connect emotional with culture because that's
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the other thing. People expect that
everybody will do as the bunch of people
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who are working for the motorship are
doing, but that's not the case.
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It's like landing on a new planet. You know, you've got people who've
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got different culture and you've got to
appreciate that. It comes the question of
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how do you transport your culture from
one place to the other? And before
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I tell you how we go about
it, I'd like to know if you
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see, have you seen the culture
issue being a big you know, everything
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is done perfectly across the team.
Dot on the eyes. We've got the
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contract of employment, we've got the
office, we've got the account and the
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tax, the HR people. Everything
is nicely done. We are tight from
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a contract perspective. Say CFO is
all over the moon with us, and
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now we start to get a team
of Phive, six, seven people,
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but for some reason they're not really
responding. So I'm not gonna ask you
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if you came across the scenario because
I'm sure you because you'll get that little
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grill on your face. But what
do you think is the biggest issue that
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people do is a culture? Keep
asking you the same question about the biggest
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issue I think country is probably the
second most important or the legal pace.
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So yeah, and look, culture
is an enormous topic in itself and you
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know, very often, um it's
it's an own it's a topic in its
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own right, whether it's, you
know, a strategy point, whether it's
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operational, whether it's academic. And
you know there's a couple of people,
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Keith Warburton and Patty McCarthy are two
people that Spring to mind, that we
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know that all they do is focus
on on this area, whereas for us,
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what we see is, you know, as a CEO of Unitarre,
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I see how we try to transpose
our own, you know, mothership culture
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onto the onto the onto our other
subsidiary companies, but also obviously witness firsthand
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the trials and tribulations of our customers
that are trying to Um, you know,
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make sure that there that their their
their operations internationally is successful, and
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we don't see that the inner workings
of that. So you know, it's
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really my own thoughts on on how
unit tear our business and how we drive
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our culture and the type of things
that we do. So for us,
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I think it's the starting point is
is really understanding what what our values are
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and what our business is all about. Right. So, you know,
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in the UK we're part of a
bigger group and we we are. We're
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on a journey and we're talking about, you know, taking pride in our
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work, contributing to customers succes,
test game changing solutions. So that's all.
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That's all nice and good, Um, but you've got to live and
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breed it. And and I think
from a leadership standpoint, the culture starts
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there, but it doesn't stop there. It can't. It can't be leadership
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going this is what I think,
this is what we're going to do.
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Do it right. It's got to
we're talking about human beings here that all
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get up in the morning. They
all have their own different sets of challenges.
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They all Um, you know,
inherently, I think human beings want
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to do well. So they need
to be clear about Um, what is
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what is the overall vision? And
particularly when you have operations internationally, it's
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very easy to forget the cultural piece. It's almost like these a metrics.
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This is what you need to deliver
as part of you know, let's take
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operatics as an example, and culture
gets forgotten. But if you're going to
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take people on the journey, and
it is a journey and I want to
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put the question back on you in
a minute because I'd love to know how
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you manage your, you know,
your US team, because it's such a
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a big part of your team now. But yeah, it's so for me
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it's it's about being accessible, it's
about so they understand what the overall vision
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is. It's about being accessible,
it's about being really transparent between, you
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know, all of the employees.
We have a very flat structure at unit
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terror. So, Um, you
know, anybody can message me at any
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time, whether they're in Bristol in
the UK or whether they're in New York.
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And that takes hard work. It's
constantly evolving process and I think with
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culture ray it's not a work on
it for one or two months and then
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put it in the top of put
it in the top draw and forget about
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it. Constantly, constantly having to
work on it, work on it,
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work on it, working it because
operatics probably, like unit terror, like
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most businesses around the world, there
is this movement of employees. So some
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people some some employees will stay a
very long time. Some people decide.
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Actually, you know, I've decided
to move on. So you're constantly having
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to educate and work harder, driving
your values throughout the whole organization, and
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that is it's it's hard work and
when you when you lay around all of
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the complexity of going international, which
we talked about earlier in the core,
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it requires a huge amount of effort, not just from leadership but from everybody.
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I agree with you. I think
it's Um. You're probably the name
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on yet for me, when you
mentioned the consistency of it, Um simply
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because for me, you know,
he's still I know we're all very smart
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people and all that, but there
is still a little bit of an animal
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feeling in where we are and I
believe that we've all in tribes. I
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think, you know, there's people
that we probably prefer the look of for
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the way they are than some other
and that's coming from our education, is
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coming from lots of things. I
do believe that, you know, we
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are read all the stuff about leadership
and culture and also things, but I
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think that things are very more,
you know, primal tribal, tribal than
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that. And you know that you've
named the culture when the people in the
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team are self regulating the culture themselves. Right, we speak about a lot
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of things, the non negotiable,
the values, the behaviors, blah blah,
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blah, blah, blah blah,
but they all come back to one
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thing, which is setting up a
group of rules. She's like, you
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know, the laws, the religions
and stuff like that. You know,
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don't care because that's not cool.
Don't share because it's not great. You
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know, all these sort of things. We have to put some rules that.
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Well, if you don't do it, there will be some consequences.
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Okay, and I think it's no
really difficult, no more difficult than that.
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And what's difficult is to find the
people, the core group of people
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that will be happy to be like
a UH, a police player, like
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the captains, the team captains,
someone would work the albums if I was
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on a football pitch and come and
shout at me because I'm not moving my
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ass on the pitch right and tell
me, look, if you don't do
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it, I'm gonna asked for you
to be some because we so who is
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this kind of and we call that
the leadership. For me, that's more
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like the Alpha type of the group
and the people who really get it personally,
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when someone is not respecting the culture
like you turn up at nine thirty
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when we supposed to that to start
at nine. You want the team to
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self regulate that guy. You should
not be a manager, you should be
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the team. You know, sending
them the girls, looking at them and
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said, what's going on? This
is not the way we work here.
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Yeah, it's a non negotiable what
you're doing. You don't want to be
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part of that group. Well,
if you don't want to be part of
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that group, WE'RE gonna self regulate
you out of that group. You know,
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and that's the difficult bit. The
difficult bit is how do you find
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people that are consistently fighting for the
right values, that are constant? And
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I'm not. You know, it's
difficult and that's one of our difficulty maybe
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sometimes in the US where our managers
make your bad behavior but don't act on
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it. Well, what happened when
you do that is that everybody look at
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the bad behavior and say that's okay, it's okay to be Sti mute late.
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You know, Bob didn't get any
didn't get in trouble for that right
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and I think if I was in
the office I would probably dress down bub
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a little bit. And that is
old school. People don't like that and
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lots of boxation that do it and
stuff, but I think there are things
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that you need to do behind behind
closed door when it's, you know,
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personally work related, when it's attitude
related, if it's attitude not ability related,
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or if it's attitude, I think
there is part of it that needs
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to be addressed in front of the
group. Yeah, it's like a pack
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of wold when you've but one that
just go and stopped to buy the hair
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of the other one and everybody knows
that. You know they don't. They've
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got to look up and you're sending
a message to everyone and it's that repetition
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of the message with someone making a
mistake. You've got the things. I
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even do something sometimes which is actually
I've actually learned that, rightly or wrongly,
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from S Alex Ferguson. For people
who are not in the UK,
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it was. It was the football
coach of Manchester. I mean you must
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have been living on the rock to
not know with Alex valution, but it
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was soccer for Manchester United, or
football if you're European, and their coach
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for a long time and what you
would do at all of time he would
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probably if the team is a big
compleasant he will pick the best player on
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the pitch and give them absolute ships. So all the other one that are
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thinking Whoa David was the best player
on the pitch and he's getting it proper.
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Everybody step up. I know it's
bad, I know you're not supposed
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to do it. I know we
may have a few glass door review that
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are not happy with that because you
can't please everyone when you've got stronger people
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working for you. But I think
to your point, I think you the
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way we go about it. So
you asked me about the how kind of
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went to the y and the sort
of the sort process. But they how
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is that we will try to find
someone. So, for example, here
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in the UK we've got the chance
to have a guy. His name is
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will Taylor. Um is a good
guy, good company boy, very close
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to the team, always want to
do the right thing, really want to
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progress within operatics. We've got a
good relationship with him. His heart is
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in the right place. You know, he's got to develop the abilities,
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but he's got everything. It's just
we need to teach him the abilities and
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now he's got an opportunity of taking
what he's done in the UK. So
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He's been running team in the UK
to do it in Germany. Yeah,
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we're gonna transfer. He's a German
native, right, so you can transfer
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that. But we've got someone that
is a very bad payer. We aren't
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grooming but it gets you know what
we do. We are not a bunch
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of account that operatics. There is
a method, there is there is a
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very specific playbook for what we do. We constructort someone from the alten and
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expect them to manage a team.
We've got to train them, we've got
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to enable them, we've got to
spend time with them. But now you
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can take that and he knows the
culture and trust me, you would not
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want to cross him because he probably
would tell you right, because it's been
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told and it's been batter it's been
part of that group where if someone leave
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the table early without asking you,
they can leave the table. It's like,
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what are you doing? This is
not good. We don't do that.
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We are polite with each other.
We do this with that. So
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we've got that guy and that guy
can be the first personal his mission is
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to find the pillars, the foundation
that will be able to first forward two
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years be the winds in that of
the space and so we can grow with
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them. So it's about finding people
in the interview process and reporting on the
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value, or it in more on
values, or you want the ability as
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well, but you would want value
and core skills, if you will,
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and then developing these people because they've
got the right value and they already believe
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in the value we want to push, which are, you know, we
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cat them behavior actually, because the
world value is a bit I think.
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I find it a bit strange.
Everybody's got their own st of value.
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But so we talk about professionalism,
conscientiousness, resilience and accountability. Right.
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So that's the far key behavior.
We want our leaders to have. An
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accountability is keeping the other accountable as
much as yourself, and that, for
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us, is important. So answer
your question, is ideally finding someone that
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is with us, that can relocate
right the way we open up the US.
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My business partner at the time is
not involving the business anymore, but
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my business partner at the time actually
moved to North America. You know,
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he was there on the posit of
the time. Okay, and you know
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it's how you got to start it, because you are there, you can
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really see what's going on and be
in the trenches. I think lots of
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people just think that they're gonna do
one local recruitment and I've did it so
357
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many times. Oh yeah, expansion
in Apac or or expansion in the US
358
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or expansion in Germany, and really
work out why. Why is the first
359
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man on the ground? Was Not
good and every single time is the firstman
360
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on the ground because they don't have
the culture. They don't get it.
361
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And if you can, and it's
difficult because it's a commitment for people,
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but getting someone that you know,
you can trust, that knows the value,
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is a good employee to go and
then support them in building a teams.
364
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They can be surrounded by people that
are smart, coachable but also have
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the right behaviors and understand the cultures
through this behavior. But you don't need
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to tell them the culture. You've
got an issue when you've got to say,
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well, our culture is is that? Yeah, it's it's got to
368
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come from them if they need to
have the culture pretty much before they join.
369
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Yes, most of the success stories. It's a really, really good
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point actually and it's not an obvious
one to perhaps the listeners of of of
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this podcast, but certainly from my
experience the companies that have relocated a senior
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leader from HQ to the new market. Now there is costs associate with that.
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You know, these visas, this, you know, if you know
374
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this, this children having to move
schools, probing the wrong game, if
375
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the wrong gay. You'RE gonna have
six months before you find out, eight
376
00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.440
months before you find out, because
they will obviously tell you a fantastic story
377
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to get that job. And you
know because are you don't understand, David.
378
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:48.759
The market is different. Yeah,
that's where we need to add out.
379
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:52.119
Oh yeah, but your guys,
you always have to sort of things
380
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where someone is afraid to tell you. In Germany is fundamentally different. Oh
381
00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.200
yeah, well, yeah. So, so what happenpens then? And to
382
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.680
your point, where is Um?
I think you said? Was it matt
383
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:10.640
was a win win. Sorry.
Yeah, so so will who will be
384
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.599
going over to Germany? Like you
said, he's lifting the operatics culture over
385
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:22.599
to the German business. You avoid
hiring individuals that are not you know,
386
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:29.839
they haven't got operatics DNA in them, and you're not rolling that dice hoping
387
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.839
for a six but getting a one. Yeah, so we've seen that a
388
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:41.839
lot and it's it's very it's it's
not always the case because you know,
389
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.799
as I said earlier in the conversation, a lot of our customers are in
390
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.440
a hurry and to relocate somebody takes
time and that might not be a commodity
391
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:53.640
that you that you have. It
sounds like in your instance, you know
392
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.920
it's thought through on this, probably
because you've learned the mistakes of the US.
393
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.359
You know, sometimes the stars just
aligned. So he won't fully relocate
394
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.599
to Germany, but in that in
that particular scenario, Um, he happens
395
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.680
to have his family living just outside
of another. We're gonna Open the office
396
00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.680
in another twenty minutes away. He's
gonna be able to see his parents more
397
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:22.559
often, which he likes the idea
of. But he's also got a girlfriend
398
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.039
in in in the in the UK. So technically, you know, no
399
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.200
kids at the moment. Just the
situation will probably evolve over time, but
400
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.960
at the moment no kids. A
bit more freedom to take that sort of
401
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.559
faction and do that sort of things
and put that in the CV Um and
402
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.160
the ability to go back to go
back and forth. So we don't want
403
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.119
him to be there and completely relocated. We probably will get a flat,
404
00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.680
but we will want him to spend
a fir amount of time there and then
405
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.440
we will change with other managers.
We've got operation directors who are British or
406
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:53.759
English or French or whatever that will
also go to manage the teams. But
407
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:59.119
we will try to always have a
finger on the pulse down there. We
408
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.200
always have some in the in the
office, not because we want to big
409
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.119
brother the people, but because we
think it's first of all, is critical
410
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:07.599
that they get to know the people
and they manager on the leadership. And
411
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.200
there is also something with culture thick. We don't speak enough about relationships.
412
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.079
The people need to feel love.
And how do you feel them? How
413
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.599
do you make them feel love?
What you make them feel love by going
414
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.160
down and actually speaking to them and
not speaking to them about work, but
415
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.359
trying to attend under who they are. So that's something that we try to
416
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.440
do a lot as the leadership team. Um, particularly in today's market with
417
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.440
covid where you know I mean on
Lincin, we try to do a party
418
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.920
pretty much everymounts to get people together. Um, we're lucky. We've got
419
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.839
lots of things to celebrate at the
moment. But when we do these parties,
420
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.079
we just breath. The leadership team
and slogay is remember, we are
421
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.799
not staying amongst each other. We're
gonna go and speak to all the people
422
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.480
that you've never met before. We're
gonna go and introduce ourselves. If it
423
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.000
is someone in the corner, this
is difficult, right. If I have
424
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.920
a work party in two thousand and
eighteen, I've already know everybody in there.
425
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.559
This because I spent my life with
them. So when I go there
426
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:06.400
we've already got stories, I know
stuff, we can pick up conversation that
427
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.400
we are I can speak about football
and stuff. If I'm the new guy
428
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.720
coming from Manchester for my first event
with Operatics, I may know a few
429
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.839
people in my team, but there
is literally seventies stranger in front of me.
430
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.440
It's like going to a wedding or
you just know your wife and a
431
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.359
couple of friends. Right. You
want people to make you feel comfortable.
432
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.160
You want people to go around and
introduce themselves to you and say, Hey,
433
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.400
go and meet that guy and that
guyls funny. You say that,
434
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.319
have you met that guy? And
you start to create this connection, right,
435
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.920
and that's the thing that the role
of leadership sometimes for culture. Another
436
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:44.359
thing that I've seen is maybe leadership
staying in the ivory tower. You can't
437
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.039
do it without investing into it and
you've got to invest in human capital and
438
00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:52.440
make them feel love, and that
will go through actually having exchange with them.
439
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.480
And I know that there is a
certain size where you know if you've
440
00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:58.559
got five people, it's going to
be difficult and you've got to do one.
441
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.599
Too many want to feel but I
think it's important to have some sort
442
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:07.359
of connection with the people. It
sounds like we're we're both lovers of Alex
443
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.480
Ferguston, but I was listening to
a podcast. Me Get up to direct
444
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:15.000
now that that's that's me. So
I was listening to a podcast this morning
445
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:20.599
from about so it was diary of
the CEO and it was Gary Neville and
446
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:25.160
he was talking about what Alex Ferguson
did. Well, right, and he
447
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.359
would treat Um, he would,
he would treat the lady in the laundry
448
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.119
room, yeah, or the lady
that makes the teas and coffees in the
449
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.200
in the restaurant the same as he
would the striker that he just paid fifty
450
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:45.839
million four. Yeah, and if
and and and, if he ever saw
451
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:52.400
you know people who were perceived to
be lower in the food chain being called
452
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.599
out by the stars. He would
stamp on that and I know that might
453
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.160
seem like old school, but I
think to your point about everybody needs to
454
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.199
be on the bus and everybody needs
to feel that they have a value in
455
00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.320
terms of the journey. And there's
the CEO and the leadership, you know,
456
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.119
those, those conversations with those new
people that have started and making them
457
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:25.199
feel part of the unit terror or
operatics journey. Whilst it's all time and
458
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:31.000
it's all you know, Um,
you could be you could be telling stories
459
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.119
with the colleagues that have been there
for, you know, since the time
460
00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.960
invested in those New People is absolutely
critical. To my point at the beginning
461
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.559
of the conversation, it's never ending
this. It's an evolving process of taking
462
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.719
people on the journey. I agree
with you. The thing was the staff
463
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.639
is critical. You know, I
just make a point. Australian the US,
464
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:57.800
you know you've got you've got the
office clean out coming in the evening
465
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:00.679
and I was in the US.
Obviously nobody's Ye know, to them.
466
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.000
Likely they don't mind them, they
don't do anything wrong to them, but
467
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:06.679
they don't really interact with them.
So I went to speak to them and
468
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.800
say hello and thank you so much
for keeping the office clean. I just
469
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.920
wanted to know if there is anything
we could do better. Do you think
470
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.199
we are messy? And I appreciate
your job. When I started in the
471
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.199
UK my first job was cleaning office
in the morning, so I spoke to
472
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:21.599
them about that's looking particulate the toilets
and stuff. She's annoying me when people,
473
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.000
you know, treat the office space
like and I can leave my mudther
474
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.719
someone would just clean it for me. Would you do that at them now?
475
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.880
You want Um so and and you
know it's a very small percentage of
476
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.800
the population, but I think doing
that sort of things and people ask you
477
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.159
us, well, that was very
nice what you've done. It's not nice,
478
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.239
it's normal. They are part of
the team, right, and if
479
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:47.039
you are nice to them, your
desk maybe a little bit cleaner when someone
480
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.880
else's desk. We used to live
like. I used to live like anvilment.
481
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.239
To be fair, it's easier for
me because I used to do of
482
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.920
his cleaning. So I've been doing
that and my mom, you know,
483
00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:58.840
when I grew up she was cleaning
other people else. That's what our job
484
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.840
so, you know, probably get
a little bit more an emotional connection,
485
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.159
but you know, living an envelope
for Christmas with a little card and like
486
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:08.760
a ten pound note saying thank you
so much for, you know, cleaning
487
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.920
all my crap or you're along.
Really appreciate you have a great Christmas.
488
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:20.079
Right. That's probably makes that person
day massively right and I think this is
489
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.039
really the things that I'm missing.
We all speak about Blah Blah, blah,
490
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.599
Blah Blah Blah, the techniques and
dad and all the stuff, but
491
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.719
just forget to just actually be kind
with people. You know, do sect
492
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:35.199
of kindness. is also what we
have the team to do amongst each other
493
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.039
and say you pick up the people, don't wait for your manager to go
494
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:44.039
and introduce that person. We want
people and will naturally welcome the new starter.
495
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.719
Make them feel good, introduce them
to people, show them the ropes
496
00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.519
and be kind, because you know, that's just the type of environment.
497
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.880
You can create all culture you want, but if people are really king with
498
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.880
each other, I think that's really
what you got. You nail it on
499
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.000
yeah, then you've got a good
group. And I think when you've got
500
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.679
the ability to be physically in the
same location. It's a lot easier.
501
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:13.079
But I have to think. Ray. I'll give you an example of you
502
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:16.719
know, so if I'm if if
I wake up, and so as a
503
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.000
CEO you have to get used to
waking up and normally having some bad news
504
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.719
in the inbox in the morning.
That's just life as a CEO, right.
505
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:32.400
So the easy thing to do is
to fire off emails to hear whoever
506
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.360
it is and say, why is
this happen? Why is that happen?
507
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.039
What's going on here? What's doing
on that? When you've got when you
508
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:45.679
and that's that. I have to
temper that. Just in the UK business,
509
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.559
okay, because I'm trying to mature
as a CEO. Managed the communication,
510
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.159
thinking about the impact of that individual
when they get up in the morning
511
00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:02.360
and they get that email, that
is shifting. Okay, when you transpose
512
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:07.280
that to the states or Asia,
they're not in that room, they they're
513
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.719
not physically in the same office as
you and that ruins that day potentially,
514
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.639
particularly if they don't know what you
are to tep down, you know,
515
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:23.039
because I think it's okay to have
communication with people and tell them what they
516
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.920
do. I mean this is the
concept of radical candle. But I think
517
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.760
with most of my leadership team,
what I think. I'm glad we we
518
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:36.679
we've achieved this. We're gonna have
some very honest conversation. We can call
519
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.000
out each other because we need to
do it because there is something going wrong
520
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.360
and it needs to be sorted now, and we are we are professional and
521
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.360
we need to do it properly,
but at the same time, you know,
522
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.760
we'll take a bullet for each other. You know, I think it
523
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.760
goes both way. I think you
can be you can be direct with people,
524
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.800
but at the same time you need
to make sure that in a situation
525
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.039
you protect them when they need to
be protected. So it's kind of the
526
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.400
usual thing. If someone is down
because they've got some stuff, you probably
527
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.400
don't want to send them the emails. So it's kind of knowing where everybody's
528
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.840
are at in them in some of
their head and yes, kind of the
529
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.880
management on the one by one basis
really, but I think sometimes also people
530
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.480
do need that sort of getting in
the morning and reading that email and it
531
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.079
just wiped them up. But it's
a balance. There's a balance, isn't
532
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.159
there? It's getting that balance right
and it's about getting your timing right and
533
00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.960
you will never get it right,
you know. So that's the thing.
534
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.719
It's just sometimes people focus on one
action, but sometimes you do one action
535
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.840
because you want to have one reaction
and that's one reaction will go to the
536
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.840
rest of the team. Some of
it is in what you should not do
537
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.079
is to try to transpose your problem
on someone else. You've got to always
538
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.400
be called bloodied before you using that
email. And you either want to start
539
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:54.159
a little bit of a war,
you want to you want to light a
540
00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:00.079
bomb or something. But it's got
to be intentional, not emotional. If
541
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.599
you do it emotionally because you're like
look, I'm not gonna deal with that,
542
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.519
I'm gonna make it someone else problem, I don't think that's good.
543
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.239
I think if you are doing for
the purpose of coaching an individual and make
544
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.519
them feel something that you think will
let them in the coaching journey, it's
545
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:15.760
fine. It's okay that they don't
like you, for they or two.
546
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.920
They'll come around and you sometimes have
argument with people and you know, we
547
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:22.760
we we needed they are two.
We don't speak much. It's it's really
548
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.119
bizarre, very childish in a way, but we don't speak much, but
549
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.960
we need to think and then we
come and always usual things. Look,
550
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.599
I should not have reacted like that. Look, my phone was terrible,
551
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:35.400
but the content I still believe.
Yeah, okay, this, that right.
552
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.559
We're good. Of course we're good. I don't know why your heart
553
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.400
is yeah, I know about that, and you know what actually quite and
554
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.760
then we all progress from it and
then we will make you the good things
555
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.000
two days later, because it's a
difficult science. I think you know the
556
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.960
people around you, and that's coming
back to the point. Is that if
557
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.360
you just get someone brand new that
you don't know, that don't know you,
558
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:58.039
that don't know you're on a personal
level, that don't know yet,
559
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:00.840
that you would take a bullet for
them, that don't not yet that you
560
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.199
will protect them under whatever circumstances,
that don't really understand your manager, your
561
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.320
style, that's why your bravely.
I add that with with we we recruit
562
00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:12.599
the US GM last year, and
I think it's just say that I was
563
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.079
being a pain because I was managing
him like the rest of the team who
564
00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:20.880
knew me and know the way that
I am, and and I think if
565
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.119
I've made some mistake with him,
Um and, but you know, you
566
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.480
know right, as you said.
You know, it's about trying to be
567
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.480
a better CEO every day, trying
to be a better passing every day.
568
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:36.480
In the process you're gonna ADK some
people, you're gonna make some more fantastically,
569
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.960
you know, progress and create a
bit of legacy in their life and
570
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:45.960
all that. And Yeah, so
balance really and if I listened to you,
571
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:52.119
if I think about summarizing the this
part of the conversation, so operatics.
572
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:58.000
Obviously UK headquartered large operation in the
US and now you're about to embark
573
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:05.639
on Germany, operations in Germany.
Think a pro probably we want we want
574
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800
to be a scale up now.
So we want to finish something before we
575
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.360
start something else. So we want
to be complete or finisher. So we're
576
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.239
gonna get the German office, get
a few people in there and get our
577
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.280
foundation right and then we moved to
a back but we need to do a
578
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.559
back so and those foundations right.
If you think about the lessons that you've
579
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.039
learned lifting somebody from another ship into
new market, that's one lesson. Second
580
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:35.960
lesson is getting the right professional advice
so you avoid I R S issues.
581
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.960
Oh Yeah, do that, avoid
the R S. Yeah, anymore.
582
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.840
Um, yeah, I'd say.
I'd say the creating a car team.
583
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:52.199
Luckily so trying to recruit people change
the way you would recruit people, because
584
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.320
I think if you've got a big
group, you may not need to have
585
00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.880
people who fully have all the values
because they will integrate and will be regulated
586
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:04.480
by the rest of the group.
However, for a project like the German
587
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.719
project, we probably want our five
first recruits to have the value that we've
588
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.519
got intrastic. We want them to
have them internally. We don't want them
589
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.320
to teach them, we don't want
so. We want them to really shows
590
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.400
when we piled the onion, that
they've got all the right values. So
591
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.159
there will be naturals in this value. So then don't it matters n less
592
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.360
if you've got five of the score
people. It will be seen as the
593
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.519
founder's member. If you will have
operative Germany and probably the managers of the
594
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:35.559
future when you bring another turn on
top of that, values again is less
595
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.599
because these guys will regulate. So
I think creating your car team spending up
596
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.719
a bit more time at the outset, and I think the last thing is
597
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.840
do not act under time pressure.
You know, you mentioned that your clients
598
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.880
call you when it's too late and
stuff. You should not be pressured to
599
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.480
do anything. Um, I know
it's easier said than done, but you've
600
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.880
got to plan right. If you've
got to do it, you've got to
601
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.880
plan and and and news companies like
you guys. You know there is professional
602
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.599
out there is that job. They
can take it away from you. And
603
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:12.159
I know that you probably obviously cost
a little bit of money, but do
604
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:16.519
you really cost more than messing it
up? Do you really cost more than
605
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.719
mere recruiting stree gays in one country
and nine months later realizing that down on
606
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:24.239
the right people? Particularly if I'm
a tech company in the investments you put
607
00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.840
in would be massive. If you've
got to law suits in Germany because you
608
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.840
don't follow the Hur Procedure Right,
I am sure that you get your money
609
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.119
back. So just just doing the
right things and being set up properly.
610
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.239
First of all, we'll help you
to attract talents so as I get your
611
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:45.119
right advice said properly and show if
you go to Germany, which is my
612
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:49.280
case, I want to show to
the German people have come from interview that
613
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.000
we mean it, we mean to
open in Germany. We choose it.
614
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:57.239
We want to be there and I
want there. I want them to be
615
00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.599
part of the German team, and
then we're gonna get them to because you
616
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.159
get the US team and we've got
all sorts of things where we are finding
617
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:07.320
people can kicking Sarch us, but
you've got to minute, don't do it
618
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639
for for the wrong reason. You've
you've got to really need it and be
619
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.000
doubt. I think that's that's the
overriding message for me. If, if
620
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:20.360
you know the as a leadership group, you have to the focus is always
621
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.719
on revenue, Um, and culture
is a is a is a hot topic
622
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:31.599
at HQ, but to build a
really successful international business you have to focus
623
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:37.239
on culture day in, day out
and it needs to be part of the
624
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.239
DNA and it cannot be, you
know, just left to chance. I
625
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.719
agree with you. So thanks for
all the insights, David. Unfortunately we
626
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.960
get into to the end of our
recording time there, um, but it
627
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:52.199
was it was super good to have
you on the show, you know,
628
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.639
to learn more about terror. I'll
let you turn the table. It'll bit
629
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.719
around. I saw that coming.
You know, you're asking me a lot
630
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.639
tough questions and I was US coming
with all my sorts as well. So,
631
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.159
to be fair, I am it
was a great conversation. If any
632
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.280
of ours that are looking for an
international expansion, they want some support,
633
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:13.719
they would like to find a company
that can actually help them to navigate through
634
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.159
all the crap and get the things
right. But my email is David Unitara
635
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.639
dot io or they can find it
on Linkedin at David Wall my mobile numbers
636
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.840
on on my linkedin page. But
whereas, it was great to have you
637
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.199
on the show, so thank you
very much for today. All Right,
638
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.000
thanks, Ray.
