135: Cultural Considerations as You Enter New Markets

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.639 You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.599 software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:15.000 Let's get into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers 4 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:21.120 your entire go to market your organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:27.039 customer interactions, transform your organization into a revenue machine or unlock in reality and 6 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.960 helping your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io. 7 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.840 Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is 8 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.759 Lamtier and I'm here today with David Wall, founder and CEO at Unit Terr. 9 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:46.520 How are you doing today, David? Thanks you have a good holiday. 10 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.000 I was absolutely fantastic. Two weeks in Abisa with two kids, but 11 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.920 my name in the swimming pool work came back, so tad. That's uh, 12 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.960 yeah, really had a good time. But yeah, today, David, 13 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.359 with you, so we had the conversation quite a lot about wow, 14 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.640 I don't want to steal your offenders. You'll explain to audience what you do, 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.239 but today we'll be speaking about cultural consideration as you enter on your market 16 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.000 we are the importance of that and you've got to turn off expense. I 17 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.200 think it's going to be a good exposure for audience. But, as I 18 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:19.959 said, before we get into a topic, would you mind just giving a 19 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.560 little bit of an introduition as to yourself, David, but also the company, 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:29.680 your present Unitarraa and what you do? So My name is David Wall 21 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.040 I'm the CEO of units era. We're a UK headquarters business. We have 22 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:40.480 operations in in the UK, in the US and in Asia. Um, 23 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:48.959 we've advised an excessive five CFOs F D S HR directors and they're wider management 24 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:55.840 teams around setting up operations in international markets. We typically work with fast growth 25 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:01.760 businesses that are in a hurry to grab new revenue and get stable operations, 26 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:07.280 as I said, in the new international market. So our call service offering 27 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.159 is advising around whether they need legal entities, Um, what kind of tax 28 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.759 registrations they need to make in a particular country. We run international payroll, 29 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:23.280 we have a fully outsourced international HR team and we also do the accounting and 30 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:30.800 tax compliance. So effectively customers can run their front office, grow their sales 31 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:36.159 and revenue and we take care of all the back office compliance. That's wonderful. 32 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.199 A big, big pain that you remove from the from the clans, 33 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.280 I'm sure, from your clients, Um. So, David, you've been 34 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:47.919 helping a lot of these companies in developing internationally, especially from the HR front. 35 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.039 But from your perspective, Western must common mistake that you've seen your clients 36 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.080 making. Our prospect as are makings when setting up a business internationally. So 37 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:05.360 it's a really good question, Ray, and you know we've we've supported customers 38 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:10.199 in over a hundred countries probably, Um, over the course of unit terrorist 39 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:16.240 history and we're operating about seventy countries today currently. So, as you can 40 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:23.199 imagine, we've witnessed lots of different mistakes, errors, Um, interesting scenarios, 41 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:30.400 Um, in supporting all these businesses. I think I think probably there's 42 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:37.199 a couple of things that first one is a lack of appreciation of the international 43 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.360 landscape. So what do I mean by that? So a lot of our 44 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:45.159 customers are US headquartered, not exclusively, but a lot of them are. 45 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.080 And when you look at if you just take the employment landscape in the UK 46 00:03:52.240 --> 00:04:00.840 and all the associated legislation and laws around employing people in the UK, and 47 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.759 then when you think. Okay, so that's complex in itself, and then 48 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:12.479 you you move a couple of hours across the pond to France and the employment 49 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:18.319 landscape is native degrees different and it's completely it's completely under a different set of 50 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:27.040 rules, incredibly complex. And then you go an hour to the left and 51 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.959 you've got Germany and it's the same again, and Spain. So so the 52 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:39.879 complexity around going international is very real and the associated costs for getting it wrong 53 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:46.959 are can be significant. So so that's one of the things that we we 54 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:54.600 we we often see. You can't stereotype all companies and you know, and 55 00:04:54.759 --> 00:05:00.319 every business has a different risk profile too, an appetite to risk. But 56 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.879 we were, as I said, we worked with a lot of US companies 57 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.600 and they're they're in a hurry and I want to grab revenue and they're being 58 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:13.639 driven by their investors or their CEO or their their leadership team to grow revenue 59 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:19.439 and Um, we are often at pains to pull them back to to to 60 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:26.560 make sure that they do understand the implications of hiring in an international market because, 61 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.079 as I said, getting it wrong is expensive. So that's that's one 62 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:34.879 area. Another area is is one size doesn't fit all you know and it 63 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:42.399 ties into the point I made earlier around Um that you can't have a vanilla 64 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.720 approach in terms of hiring. With a lot of customers we you know and 65 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.680 a lot of the conversations that we have it's you know, we might be 66 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:55.319 working with a UK customer and they want to go into eastern Europe somewhere, 67 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.480 whether it be Poland or or Hungary, and they'll say, you know, 68 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.639 can we use the UK important contracts? And the answer is what you can 69 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:11.160 again, and you can't just use you can't have a cookie cutter approach to 70 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.480 this kind of Um expansion project. It just doesn't work. I agree with 71 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.879 you. I think there is an excitement around the boat table when we speak 72 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:28.120 about geographical expansion. Um. There is a there is a difficulty. I 73 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.439 think it goes both way. From my experience, right. So, our 74 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:38.199 first geographical expansion was from the UK to North America, right, and I 75 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:47.560 ended up with five years I R S investigation that we closed off successfully literally 76 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.560 six months ago, right, simply because from we've not done anything wrong, 77 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.920 we've not done any tax but we did not have the document in place. 78 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.519 We didn't have the rights transfer, pricing information we had something, but he 79 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.959 was very clumsy. It was a matter is the business was two years old 80 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.800 start appear. We put that on the back of an envelope and we said 81 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.720 what could with it? Or Trust me, when you deal with the I 82 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:21.560 R S, going that tough man then and they are not really understandable, 83 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:27.560 you know, they don't really make an effort to understand you and your presume 84 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.079 guilty before you you do anything else. So you've you've got to fight to 85 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:34.120 prove that you've not done anything wrong and provide lots of information. But that 86 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:39.319 was extremely painful. And now that you're opening an office in Germany, as 87 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.839 you know, like as we speak, transfer pricing is one of the first 88 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.079 things we look at. You know, you learn from your mistake, but 89 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.839 my finger still burning from the tires. I mean the emotion we went through 90 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.800 through theodit was really painful. So I think that's one thing that you didn't 91 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.120 mention. That it's also important. I know you had to train to brush 92 00:07:55.240 --> 00:08:00.319 very broadly on topics, but even tax implication, right, was tax? 93 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.279 You know, you can set up an identity in Germany or identity in in 94 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:07.759 eastern Europe and explain to pay no tax and just get all your taxes back 95 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.079 in the UK or your text in the US. So you will have to 96 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.879 make sure that you get things salted. I mean North America. We all 97 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.279 know that you've got your copyright text, but then you've got the employee tax. 98 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.439 That may differ from one step to the other. You also need to 99 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.759 be aware of that because you need to deal with it. You need to 100 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:28.160 be prepared and there is a great level of complexity and I think people, 101 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.319 I think that it myself and thinking that it was good enough to do it 102 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.159 on my own. Now we just we just just raise our hands. We 103 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.759 speak to tax advisor, we speak to h our advisor, we've got local 104 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.799 lawyers. The first thing you do is to set up a team around you, 105 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.399 but you want to speak to local lawyers. You've got to, because 106 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:52.039 you made a good point between the international market and the local complexity. And 107 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.559 then the iron issue. Right. I could try, we could try, 108 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.879 everybody could try to go and work with German resources with the UK employment contract, 109 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.360 but the German being risked verse, your chances are for finding the right 110 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.759 people with that sort of things is not great. You will probably get the 111 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.600 people that won't get a job a new else they will accept the complexity. 112 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.000 So you know, I think you've got to be very aware of all the 113 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:20.000 other things that can happen. It's not just about visiting an office, sending 114 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.679 a check, getting the keys, getting in, putting your stuff and your 115 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.039 logo on the wall and if you go, but it's really about setting up 116 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.120 the the operation properly, and then you've got to think about the relationship between 117 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:37.480 that operation and the mother ship and how do that work, and that's what 118 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.279 the tax advisor needs to come and you need to be smart. You need 119 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.799 to make sure also as you pay tax wise due, which is another thing 120 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.440 that people are discussing, because corporation tax has been better in the UKITY. 121 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.279 Maybe any while it's in the world at the moment. Okay, that may 122 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.960 change. It's wait for you for but all those things, from my perspective, 123 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:01.240 are all the complexity. For me, I guess, the employment for 124 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:05.320 being French and I've been studying you management of small businesses. So we've we've 125 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.679 got HR and it's very funny because I was meeting with the lawyer two weeks 126 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.440 ago in Germany to discuss the employment contract and the way to manage resources is 127 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.480 completely different right. If someone lies during the interview process about something that they've 128 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.519 done, you actually keep that on track. If that, if their contract 129 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.440 said they only have one job, but at the weekend they do Google driving 130 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.480 or the deliver pizzas or whatever, you may not just tell them and confront 131 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.120 them on Monday morning. You keep that on track on five right. Why? 132 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.320 Because the day you need to do something with them, you've got all 133 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.320 this information about them basically breaching the contract that you can use against them. 134 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.159 Because if it's very difficult. So it's a completely different market. In the 135 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.759 US it's unemployer lets. If you are the employer, you are the king. 136 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.080 You can you can say to someone you are sacked and they have to 137 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:56.320 walk out, and there is literally pretty much no right. In France, 138 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.759 is the employee that's got the power. In Germany, your employee got the 139 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.519 power. And then when you get a company with more than twenties or two 140 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.799 people, you've got to syndicate. People can create unions, and that's the 141 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:13.960 thing that you need to really look at and that's why you can't do it 142 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.480 with just your own desk research. There is not a website that we give 143 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.279 your the information. There is not a book that we give your the information, 144 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.159 because that's changing also all the time. So really getting is an organization 145 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.919 like yourself, AH and hi expert, tax expert, luckily, that can 146 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.200 speak to your tax expert in the UK, to your hi expert in the 147 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.120 UK and let those groups organize each other. Is absolutely fundamental. So I 148 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:46.279 do appreciate what you say, David. Yeah, just just talking through that 149 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:52.200 scenario and thanks for sharing that right in terms of your own experience one of 150 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.080 the Times. Back to the initial question, the one of the things that 151 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:01.720 we find is typically the business is that we work with they'll either they'll either 152 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.200 have raised some money or they will be sat on money and they're going to 153 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:13.360 invest it in a in a new market and they want to get there in 154 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.360 a hurry. They but they they don't typically, and I'm not saying that 155 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.720 this is the way to do it, but it ties into the point again. 156 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.480 Normally, you know, the senior management attached to do with it, 157 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.440 to to do an international expansion on top of their day job, and it's 158 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:37.679 so complex that it's, you know, and time consuming that it just soaks 159 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.200 up a lot of a lot of that time around the C suite. Yeah, 160 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:50.679 again, the planning and the understanding around, whether it's attacks, whether 161 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.080 it's the HR, whether it's, you know, to your point around when 162 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:01.559 you settle that operation in North America or in Europe and electing that back to 163 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:07.080 the mothership in terms of how you drive your culture and how you Um, 164 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:16.080 you know, you your values are transposed onto those satellite or subsidiary operations. 165 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.720 It's a really significant thing in terms of if you want to, you know, 166 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:28.279 have a successful result and therefore investment is required, not necessarily financial investment, 167 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:33.120 but emotional, emotional investment. You're is a good point, David, 168 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.879 because you know that we speak about the technical side of things right, so 169 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.759 that's the borrowing part from a perspective. But you know this is this is 170 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.039 to be done. You know you've got to get the finance right. You 171 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.759 need to know you're going to produce your accounts, was gonna set the accounts 172 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.679 and you know, produce the numbers in in the country you are going and 173 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.039 all that. Your contractor employment needs to be spot on as well. So 174 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.159 all the sorts of things are important, but you just kind of touched onto 175 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.840 the emotional and for me I would just almost connect emotional with culture because that's 176 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.879 the other thing. People expect that everybody will do as the bunch of people 177 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.759 who are working for the motorship are doing, but that's not the case. 178 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.600 It's like landing on a new planet. You know, you've got people who've 179 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.200 got different culture and you've got to appreciate that. It comes the question of 180 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:24.679 how do you transport your culture from one place to the other? And before 181 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.000 I tell you how we go about it, I'd like to know if you 182 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:31.440 see, have you seen the culture issue being a big you know, everything 183 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.480 is done perfectly across the team. Dot on the eyes. We've got the 184 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.879 contract of employment, we've got the office, we've got the account and the 185 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:45.720 tax, the HR people. Everything is nicely done. We are tight from 186 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.360 a contract perspective. Say CFO is all over the moon with us, and 187 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.159 now we start to get a team of Phive, six, seven people, 188 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.759 but for some reason they're not really responding. So I'm not gonna ask you 189 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.879 if you came across the scenario because I'm sure you because you'll get that little 190 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.679 grill on your face. But what do you think is the biggest issue that 191 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.399 people do is a culture? Keep asking you the same question about the biggest 192 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:15.600 issue I think country is probably the second most important or the legal pace. 193 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:24.159 So yeah, and look, culture is an enormous topic in itself and you 194 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.600 know, very often, um it's it's an own it's a topic in its 195 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:33.159 own right, whether it's, you know, a strategy point, whether it's 196 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:37.840 operational, whether it's academic. And you know there's a couple of people, 197 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.200 Keith Warburton and Patty McCarthy are two people that Spring to mind, that we 198 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.960 know that all they do is focus on on this area, whereas for us, 199 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.679 what we see is, you know, as a CEO of Unitarre, 200 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.840 I see how we try to transpose our own, you know, mothership culture 201 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:07.039 onto the onto the onto our other subsidiary companies, but also obviously witness firsthand 202 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:14.759 the trials and tribulations of our customers that are trying to Um, you know, 203 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.879 make sure that there that their their their operations internationally is successful, and 204 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:23.559 we don't see that the inner workings of that. So you know, it's 205 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:30.360 really my own thoughts on on how unit tear our business and how we drive 206 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:36.840 our culture and the type of things that we do. So for us, 207 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:42.519 I think it's the starting point is is really understanding what what our values are 208 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.919 and what our business is all about. Right. So, you know, 209 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:52.480 in the UK we're part of a bigger group and we we are. We're 210 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.440 on a journey and we're talking about, you know, taking pride in our 211 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:03.360 work, contributing to customers succes, test game changing solutions. So that's all. 212 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.519 That's all nice and good, Um, but you've got to live and 213 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:14.359 breed it. And and I think from a leadership standpoint, the culture starts 214 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.119 there, but it doesn't stop there. It can't. It can't be leadership 215 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.039 going this is what I think, this is what we're going to do. 216 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.880 Do it right. It's got to we're talking about human beings here that all 217 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:27.839 get up in the morning. They all have their own different sets of challenges. 218 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.559 They all Um, you know, inherently, I think human beings want 219 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.039 to do well. So they need to be clear about Um, what is 220 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:45.880 what is the overall vision? And particularly when you have operations internationally, it's 221 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.000 very easy to forget the cultural piece. It's almost like these a metrics. 222 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.880 This is what you need to deliver as part of you know, let's take 223 00:17:53.920 --> 00:18:00.200 operatics as an example, and culture gets forgotten. But if you're going to 224 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.279 take people on the journey, and it is a journey and I want to 225 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.200 put the question back on you in a minute because I'd love to know how 226 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.079 you manage your, you know, your US team, because it's such a 227 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.000 a big part of your team now. But yeah, it's so for me 228 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:18.640 it's it's about being accessible, it's about so they understand what the overall vision 229 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:25.680 is. It's about being accessible, it's about being really transparent between, you 230 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.880 know, all of the employees. We have a very flat structure at unit 231 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.599 terror. So, Um, you know, anybody can message me at any 232 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.240 time, whether they're in Bristol in the UK or whether they're in New York. 233 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:45.440 And that takes hard work. It's constantly evolving process and I think with 234 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.759 culture ray it's not a work on it for one or two months and then 235 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.839 put it in the top of put it in the top draw and forget about 236 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.359 it. Constantly, constantly having to work on it, work on it, 237 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.160 work on it, working it because operatics probably, like unit terror, like 238 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.759 most businesses around the world, there is this movement of employees. So some 239 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:14.359 people some some employees will stay a very long time. Some people decide. 240 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.720 Actually, you know, I've decided to move on. So you're constantly having 241 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:26.599 to educate and work harder, driving your values throughout the whole organization, and 242 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:33.680 that is it's it's hard work and when you when you lay around all of 243 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.240 the complexity of going international, which we talked about earlier in the core, 244 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.799 it requires a huge amount of effort, not just from leadership but from everybody. 245 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.000 I agree with you. I think it's Um. You're probably the name 246 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.960 on yet for me, when you mentioned the consistency of it, Um simply 247 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.640 because for me, you know, he's still I know we're all very smart 248 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.359 people and all that, but there is still a little bit of an animal 249 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.079 feeling in where we are and I believe that we've all in tribes. I 250 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.559 think, you know, there's people that we probably prefer the look of for 251 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.319 the way they are than some other and that's coming from our education, is 252 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.839 coming from lots of things. I do believe that, you know, we 253 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.279 are read all the stuff about leadership and culture and also things, but I 254 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.839 think that things are very more, you know, primal tribal, tribal than 255 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.279 that. And you know that you've named the culture when the people in the 256 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:33.839 team are self regulating the culture themselves. Right, we speak about a lot 257 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.839 of things, the non negotiable, the values, the behaviors, blah blah, 258 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.839 blah, blah, blah blah, but they all come back to one 259 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.160 thing, which is setting up a group of rules. She's like, you 260 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.400 know, the laws, the religions and stuff like that. You know, 261 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.880 don't care because that's not cool. Don't share because it's not great. You 262 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:53.799 know, all these sort of things. We have to put some rules that. 263 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.119 Well, if you don't do it, there will be some consequences. 264 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:02.599 Okay, and I think it's no really difficult, no more difficult than that. 265 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:06.480 And what's difficult is to find the people, the core group of people 266 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.680 that will be happy to be like a UH, a police player, like 267 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.759 the captains, the team captains, someone would work the albums if I was 268 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.559 on a football pitch and come and shout at me because I'm not moving my 269 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.279 ass on the pitch right and tell me, look, if you don't do 270 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.160 it, I'm gonna asked for you to be some because we so who is 271 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.519 this kind of and we call that the leadership. For me, that's more 272 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.480 like the Alpha type of the group and the people who really get it personally, 273 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:37.640 when someone is not respecting the culture like you turn up at nine thirty 274 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.559 when we supposed to that to start at nine. You want the team to 275 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:44.599 self regulate that guy. You should not be a manager, you should be 276 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.079 the team. You know, sending them the girls, looking at them and 277 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:49.799 said, what's going on? This is not the way we work here. 278 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.559 Yeah, it's a non negotiable what you're doing. You don't want to be 279 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.839 part of that group. Well, if you don't want to be part of 280 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.599 that group, WE'RE gonna self regulate you out of that group. You know, 281 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.240 and that's the difficult bit. The difficult bit is how do you find 282 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:11.039 people that are consistently fighting for the right values, that are constant? And 283 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.640 I'm not. You know, it's difficult and that's one of our difficulty maybe 284 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.880 sometimes in the US where our managers make your bad behavior but don't act on 285 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.759 it. Well, what happened when you do that is that everybody look at 286 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.799 the bad behavior and say that's okay, it's okay to be Sti mute late. 287 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.960 You know, Bob didn't get any didn't get in trouble for that right 288 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.279 and I think if I was in the office I would probably dress down bub 289 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.960 a little bit. And that is old school. People don't like that and 290 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.200 lots of boxation that do it and stuff, but I think there are things 291 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.119 that you need to do behind behind closed door when it's, you know, 292 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.319 personally work related, when it's attitude related, if it's attitude not ability related, 293 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.480 or if it's attitude, I think there is part of it that needs 294 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.279 to be addressed in front of the group. Yeah, it's like a pack 295 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:00.759 of wold when you've but one that just go and stopped to buy the hair 296 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:06.920 of the other one and everybody knows that. You know they don't. They've 297 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.680 got to look up and you're sending a message to everyone and it's that repetition 298 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.200 of the message with someone making a mistake. You've got the things. I 299 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:22.359 even do something sometimes which is actually I've actually learned that, rightly or wrongly, 300 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.200 from S Alex Ferguson. For people who are not in the UK, 301 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.880 it was. It was the football coach of Manchester. I mean you must 302 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.640 have been living on the rock to not know with Alex valution, but it 303 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.480 was soccer for Manchester United, or football if you're European, and their coach 304 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.079 for a long time and what you would do at all of time he would 305 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:44.839 probably if the team is a big compleasant he will pick the best player on 306 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.559 the pitch and give them absolute ships. So all the other one that are 307 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.079 thinking Whoa David was the best player on the pitch and he's getting it proper. 308 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.559 Everybody step up. I know it's bad, I know you're not supposed 309 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.680 to do it. I know we may have a few glass door review that 310 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.240 are not happy with that because you can't please everyone when you've got stronger people 311 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.759 working for you. But I think to your point, I think you the 312 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.960 way we go about it. So you asked me about the how kind of 313 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.599 went to the y and the sort of the sort process. But they how 314 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.480 is that we will try to find someone. So, for example, here 315 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.880 in the UK we've got the chance to have a guy. His name is 316 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:26.599 will Taylor. Um is a good guy, good company boy, very close 317 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.079 to the team, always want to do the right thing, really want to 318 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.759 progress within operatics. We've got a good relationship with him. His heart is 319 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.240 in the right place. You know, he's got to develop the abilities, 320 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.960 but he's got everything. It's just we need to teach him the abilities and 321 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.720 now he's got an opportunity of taking what he's done in the UK. So 322 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.960 He's been running team in the UK to do it in Germany. Yeah, 323 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.079 we're gonna transfer. He's a German native, right, so you can transfer 324 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.119 that. But we've got someone that is a very bad payer. We aren't 325 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.319 grooming but it gets you know what we do. We are not a bunch 326 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.160 of account that operatics. There is a method, there is there is a 327 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.759 very specific playbook for what we do. We constructort someone from the alten and 328 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.160 expect them to manage a team. We've got to train them, we've got 329 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.079 to enable them, we've got to spend time with them. But now you 330 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.319 can take that and he knows the culture and trust me, you would not 331 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.240 want to cross him because he probably would tell you right, because it's been 332 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.720 told and it's been batter it's been part of that group where if someone leave 333 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.519 the table early without asking you, they can leave the table. It's like, 334 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.400 what are you doing? This is not good. We don't do that. 335 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:34.440 We are polite with each other. We do this with that. So 336 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.640 we've got that guy and that guy can be the first personal his mission is 337 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.400 to find the pillars, the foundation that will be able to first forward two 338 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:52.079 years be the winds in that of the space and so we can grow with 339 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:57.079 them. So it's about finding people in the interview process and reporting on the 340 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.680 value, or it in more on values, or you want the ability as 341 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:04.359 well, but you would want value and core skills, if you will, 342 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.400 and then developing these people because they've got the right value and they already believe 343 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.039 in the value we want to push, which are, you know, we 344 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.960 cat them behavior actually, because the world value is a bit I think. 345 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.759 I find it a bit strange. Everybody's got their own st of value. 346 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:25.559 But so we talk about professionalism, conscientiousness, resilience and accountability. Right. 347 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.960 So that's the far key behavior. We want our leaders to have. An 348 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.000 accountability is keeping the other accountable as much as yourself, and that, for 349 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:41.039 us, is important. So answer your question, is ideally finding someone that 350 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.799 is with us, that can relocate right the way we open up the US. 351 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.240 My business partner at the time is not involving the business anymore, but 352 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.799 my business partner at the time actually moved to North America. You know, 353 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.079 he was there on the posit of the time. Okay, and you know 354 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.519 it's how you got to start it, because you are there, you can 355 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.319 really see what's going on and be in the trenches. I think lots of 356 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.599 people just think that they're gonna do one local recruitment and I've did it so 357 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:15.240 many times. Oh yeah, expansion in Apac or or expansion in the US 358 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.000 or expansion in Germany, and really work out why. Why is the first 359 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.079 man on the ground? Was Not good and every single time is the firstman 360 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.160 on the ground because they don't have the culture. They don't get it. 361 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.279 And if you can, and it's difficult because it's a commitment for people, 362 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.640 but getting someone that you know, you can trust, that knows the value, 363 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:40.039 is a good employee to go and then support them in building a teams. 364 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.880 They can be surrounded by people that are smart, coachable but also have 365 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:48.200 the right behaviors and understand the cultures through this behavior. But you don't need 366 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.119 to tell them the culture. You've got an issue when you've got to say, 367 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:56.279 well, our culture is is that? Yeah, it's it's got to 368 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.880 come from them if they need to have the culture pretty much before they join. 369 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.799 Yes, most of the success stories. It's a really, really good 370 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:12.039 point actually and it's not an obvious one to perhaps the listeners of of of 371 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:22.319 this podcast, but certainly from my experience the companies that have relocated a senior 372 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.279 leader from HQ to the new market. Now there is costs associate with that. 373 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.200 You know, these visas, this, you know, if you know 374 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:36.359 this, this children having to move schools, probing the wrong game, if 375 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:40.279 the wrong gay. You'RE gonna have six months before you find out, eight 376 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.440 months before you find out, because they will obviously tell you a fantastic story 377 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:47.319 to get that job. And you know because are you don't understand, David. 378 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:48.759 The market is different. Yeah, that's where we need to add out. 379 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:52.119 Oh yeah, but your guys, you always have to sort of things 380 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.119 where someone is afraid to tell you. In Germany is fundamentally different. Oh 381 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.200 yeah, well, yeah. So, so what happenpens then? And to 382 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.680 your point, where is Um? I think you said? Was it matt 383 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:10.640 was a win win. Sorry. Yeah, so so will who will be 384 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.599 going over to Germany? Like you said, he's lifting the operatics culture over 385 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:22.599 to the German business. You avoid hiring individuals that are not you know, 386 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:29.839 they haven't got operatics DNA in them, and you're not rolling that dice hoping 387 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.839 for a six but getting a one. Yeah, so we've seen that a 388 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:41.839 lot and it's it's very it's it's not always the case because you know, 389 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.799 as I said earlier in the conversation, a lot of our customers are in 390 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.440 a hurry and to relocate somebody takes time and that might not be a commodity 391 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:53.640 that you that you have. It sounds like in your instance, you know 392 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.920 it's thought through on this, probably because you've learned the mistakes of the US. 393 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.359 You know, sometimes the stars just aligned. So he won't fully relocate 394 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.599 to Germany, but in that in that particular scenario, Um, he happens 395 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.680 to have his family living just outside of another. We're gonna Open the office 396 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.680 in another twenty minutes away. He's gonna be able to see his parents more 397 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:22.559 often, which he likes the idea of. But he's also got a girlfriend 398 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.039 in in in the in the UK. So technically, you know, no 399 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.200 kids at the moment. Just the situation will probably evolve over time, but 400 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.960 at the moment no kids. A bit more freedom to take that sort of 401 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.559 faction and do that sort of things and put that in the CV Um and 402 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.160 the ability to go back to go back and forth. So we don't want 403 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.119 him to be there and completely relocated. We probably will get a flat, 404 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.680 but we will want him to spend a fir amount of time there and then 405 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.440 we will change with other managers. We've got operation directors who are British or 406 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:53.759 English or French or whatever that will also go to manage the teams. But 407 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:59.119 we will try to always have a finger on the pulse down there. We 408 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.200 always have some in the in the office, not because we want to big 409 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.119 brother the people, but because we think it's first of all, is critical 410 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:07.599 that they get to know the people and they manager on the leadership. And 411 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.200 there is also something with culture thick. We don't speak enough about relationships. 412 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.079 The people need to feel love. And how do you feel them? How 413 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.599 do you make them feel love? What you make them feel love by going 414 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.160 down and actually speaking to them and not speaking to them about work, but 415 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.359 trying to attend under who they are. So that's something that we try to 416 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.440 do a lot as the leadership team. Um, particularly in today's market with 417 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.440 covid where you know I mean on Lincin, we try to do a party 418 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.920 pretty much everymounts to get people together. Um, we're lucky. We've got 419 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.839 lots of things to celebrate at the moment. But when we do these parties, 420 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.079 we just breath. The leadership team and slogay is remember, we are 421 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.799 not staying amongst each other. We're gonna go and speak to all the people 422 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.480 that you've never met before. We're gonna go and introduce ourselves. If it 423 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.000 is someone in the corner, this is difficult, right. If I have 424 00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.920 a work party in two thousand and eighteen, I've already know everybody in there. 425 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.559 This because I spent my life with them. So when I go there 426 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:06.400 we've already got stories, I know stuff, we can pick up conversation that 427 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.400 we are I can speak about football and stuff. If I'm the new guy 428 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.720 coming from Manchester for my first event with Operatics, I may know a few 429 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.839 people in my team, but there is literally seventies stranger in front of me. 430 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.440 It's like going to a wedding or you just know your wife and a 431 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.359 couple of friends. Right. You want people to make you feel comfortable. 432 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.160 You want people to go around and introduce themselves to you and say, Hey, 433 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.400 go and meet that guy and that guyls funny. You say that, 434 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.319 have you met that guy? And you start to create this connection, right, 435 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.920 and that's the thing that the role of leadership sometimes for culture. Another 436 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:44.359 thing that I've seen is maybe leadership staying in the ivory tower. You can't 437 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.039 do it without investing into it and you've got to invest in human capital and 438 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:52.440 make them feel love, and that will go through actually having exchange with them. 439 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.480 And I know that there is a certain size where you know if you've 440 00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:58.559 got five people, it's going to be difficult and you've got to do one. 441 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.599 Too many want to feel but I think it's important to have some sort 442 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:07.359 of connection with the people. It sounds like we're we're both lovers of Alex 443 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.480 Ferguston, but I was listening to a podcast. Me Get up to direct 444 00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:15.000 now that that's that's me. So I was listening to a podcast this morning 445 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:20.599 from about so it was diary of the CEO and it was Gary Neville and 446 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:25.160 he was talking about what Alex Ferguson did. Well, right, and he 447 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.359 would treat Um, he would, he would treat the lady in the laundry 448 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.119 room, yeah, or the lady that makes the teas and coffees in the 449 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.200 in the restaurant the same as he would the striker that he just paid fifty 450 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:45.839 million four. Yeah, and if and and and, if he ever saw 451 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:52.400 you know people who were perceived to be lower in the food chain being called 452 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.599 out by the stars. He would stamp on that and I know that might 453 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.160 seem like old school, but I think to your point about everybody needs to 454 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.199 be on the bus and everybody needs to feel that they have a value in 455 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.320 terms of the journey. And there's the CEO and the leadership, you know, 456 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.119 those, those conversations with those new people that have started and making them 457 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:25.199 feel part of the unit terror or operatics journey. Whilst it's all time and 458 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:31.000 it's all you know, Um, you could be you could be telling stories 459 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.119 with the colleagues that have been there for, you know, since the time 460 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.960 invested in those New People is absolutely critical. To my point at the beginning 461 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.559 of the conversation, it's never ending this. It's an evolving process of taking 462 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.719 people on the journey. I agree with you. The thing was the staff 463 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.639 is critical. You know, I just make a point. Australian the US, 464 00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:57.800 you know you've got you've got the office clean out coming in the evening 465 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:00.679 and I was in the US. Obviously nobody's Ye know, to them. 466 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.000 Likely they don't mind them, they don't do anything wrong to them, but 467 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:06.679 they don't really interact with them. So I went to speak to them and 468 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.800 say hello and thank you so much for keeping the office clean. I just 469 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.920 wanted to know if there is anything we could do better. Do you think 470 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.199 we are messy? And I appreciate your job. When I started in the 471 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.199 UK my first job was cleaning office in the morning, so I spoke to 472 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:21.599 them about that's looking particulate the toilets and stuff. She's annoying me when people, 473 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.000 you know, treat the office space like and I can leave my mudther 474 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.719 someone would just clean it for me. Would you do that at them now? 475 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.880 You want Um so and and you know it's a very small percentage of 476 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.800 the population, but I think doing that sort of things and people ask you 477 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.159 us, well, that was very nice what you've done. It's not nice, 478 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.239 it's normal. They are part of the team, right, and if 479 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:47.039 you are nice to them, your desk maybe a little bit cleaner when someone 480 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.880 else's desk. We used to live like. I used to live like anvilment. 481 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.239 To be fair, it's easier for me because I used to do of 482 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.920 his cleaning. So I've been doing that and my mom, you know, 483 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:58.840 when I grew up she was cleaning other people else. That's what our job 484 00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.840 so, you know, probably get a little bit more an emotional connection, 485 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.159 but you know, living an envelope for Christmas with a little card and like 486 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:08.760 a ten pound note saying thank you so much for, you know, cleaning 487 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.920 all my crap or you're along. Really appreciate you have a great Christmas. 488 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:20.079 Right. That's probably makes that person day massively right and I think this is 489 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.039 really the things that I'm missing. We all speak about Blah Blah, blah, 490 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.599 Blah Blah Blah, the techniques and dad and all the stuff, but 491 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.719 just forget to just actually be kind with people. You know, do sect 492 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:35.199 of kindness. is also what we have the team to do amongst each other 493 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.039 and say you pick up the people, don't wait for your manager to go 494 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:44.039 and introduce that person. We want people and will naturally welcome the new starter. 495 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.719 Make them feel good, introduce them to people, show them the ropes 496 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.519 and be kind, because you know, that's just the type of environment. 497 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.880 You can create all culture you want, but if people are really king with 498 00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.880 each other, I think that's really what you got. You nail it on 499 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.000 yeah, then you've got a good group. And I think when you've got 500 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.679 the ability to be physically in the same location. It's a lot easier. 501 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:13.079 But I have to think. Ray. I'll give you an example of you 502 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:16.719 know, so if I'm if if I wake up, and so as a 503 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.000 CEO you have to get used to waking up and normally having some bad news 504 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.719 in the inbox in the morning. That's just life as a CEO, right. 505 00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:32.400 So the easy thing to do is to fire off emails to hear whoever 506 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.360 it is and say, why is this happen? Why is that happen? 507 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.039 What's going on here? What's doing on that? When you've got when you 508 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:45.679 and that's that. I have to temper that. Just in the UK business, 509 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.559 okay, because I'm trying to mature as a CEO. Managed the communication, 510 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.159 thinking about the impact of that individual when they get up in the morning 511 00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:02.360 and they get that email, that is shifting. Okay, when you transpose 512 00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:07.280 that to the states or Asia, they're not in that room, they they're 513 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.719 not physically in the same office as you and that ruins that day potentially, 514 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.639 particularly if they don't know what you are to tep down, you know, 515 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:23.039 because I think it's okay to have communication with people and tell them what they 516 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.920 do. I mean this is the concept of radical candle. But I think 517 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.760 with most of my leadership team, what I think. I'm glad we we 518 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:36.679 we've achieved this. We're gonna have some very honest conversation. We can call 519 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.000 out each other because we need to do it because there is something going wrong 520 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.360 and it needs to be sorted now, and we are we are professional and 521 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.360 we need to do it properly, but at the same time, you know, 522 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.760 we'll take a bullet for each other. You know, I think it 523 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.760 goes both way. I think you can be you can be direct with people, 524 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.800 but at the same time you need to make sure that in a situation 525 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.039 you protect them when they need to be protected. So it's kind of the 526 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.400 usual thing. If someone is down because they've got some stuff, you probably 527 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.400 don't want to send them the emails. So it's kind of knowing where everybody's 528 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.840 are at in them in some of their head and yes, kind of the 529 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.880 management on the one by one basis really, but I think sometimes also people 530 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.480 do need that sort of getting in the morning and reading that email and it 531 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.079 just wiped them up. But it's a balance. There's a balance, isn't 532 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.159 there? It's getting that balance right and it's about getting your timing right and 533 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.960 you will never get it right, you know. So that's the thing. 534 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.719 It's just sometimes people focus on one action, but sometimes you do one action 535 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.840 because you want to have one reaction and that's one reaction will go to the 536 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.840 rest of the team. Some of it is in what you should not do 537 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.079 is to try to transpose your problem on someone else. You've got to always 538 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.400 be called bloodied before you using that email. And you either want to start 539 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:54.159 a little bit of a war, you want to you want to light a 540 00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:00.079 bomb or something. But it's got to be intentional, not emotional. If 541 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.599 you do it emotionally because you're like look, I'm not gonna deal with that, 542 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.519 I'm gonna make it someone else problem, I don't think that's good. 543 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.239 I think if you are doing for the purpose of coaching an individual and make 544 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.519 them feel something that you think will let them in the coaching journey, it's 545 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:15.760 fine. It's okay that they don't like you, for they or two. 546 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.920 They'll come around and you sometimes have argument with people and you know, we 547 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:22.760 we we needed they are two. We don't speak much. It's it's really 548 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.119 bizarre, very childish in a way, but we don't speak much, but 549 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.960 we need to think and then we come and always usual things. Look, 550 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.599 I should not have reacted like that. Look, my phone was terrible, 551 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:35.400 but the content I still believe. Yeah, okay, this, that right. 552 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.559 We're good. Of course we're good. I don't know why your heart 553 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.400 is yeah, I know about that, and you know what actually quite and 554 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.760 then we all progress from it and then we will make you the good things 555 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.000 two days later, because it's a difficult science. I think you know the 556 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.960 people around you, and that's coming back to the point. Is that if 557 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.360 you just get someone brand new that you don't know, that don't know you, 558 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:58.039 that don't know you're on a personal level, that don't know yet, 559 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:00.840 that you would take a bullet for them, that don't not yet that you 560 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.199 will protect them under whatever circumstances, that don't really understand your manager, your 561 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.320 style, that's why your bravely. I add that with with we we recruit 562 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:12.599 the US GM last year, and I think it's just say that I was 563 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.079 being a pain because I was managing him like the rest of the team who 564 00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:20.880 knew me and know the way that I am, and and I think if 565 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.119 I've made some mistake with him, Um and, but you know, you 566 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.480 know right, as you said. You know, it's about trying to be 567 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.480 a better CEO every day, trying to be a better passing every day. 568 00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:36.480 In the process you're gonna ADK some people, you're gonna make some more fantastically, 569 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.960 you know, progress and create a bit of legacy in their life and 570 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:45.960 all that. And Yeah, so balance really and if I listened to you, 571 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:52.119 if I think about summarizing the this part of the conversation, so operatics. 572 00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:58.000 Obviously UK headquartered large operation in the US and now you're about to embark 573 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:05.639 on Germany, operations in Germany. Think a pro probably we want we want 574 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800 to be a scale up now. So we want to finish something before we 575 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.360 start something else. So we want to be complete or finisher. So we're 576 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.239 gonna get the German office, get a few people in there and get our 577 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.280 foundation right and then we moved to a back but we need to do a 578 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.559 back so and those foundations right. If you think about the lessons that you've 579 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.039 learned lifting somebody from another ship into new market, that's one lesson. Second 580 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:35.960 lesson is getting the right professional advice so you avoid I R S issues. 581 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.960 Oh Yeah, do that, avoid the R S. Yeah, anymore. 582 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.840 Um, yeah, I'd say. I'd say the creating a car team. 583 00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:52.199 Luckily so trying to recruit people change the way you would recruit people, because 584 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.320 I think if you've got a big group, you may not need to have 585 00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.880 people who fully have all the values because they will integrate and will be regulated 586 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:04.480 by the rest of the group. However, for a project like the German 587 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.719 project, we probably want our five first recruits to have the value that we've 588 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.519 got intrastic. We want them to have them internally. We don't want them 589 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.320 to teach them, we don't want so. We want them to really shows 590 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.400 when we piled the onion, that they've got all the right values. So 591 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.159 there will be naturals in this value. So then don't it matters n less 592 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.360 if you've got five of the score people. It will be seen as the 593 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.519 founder's member. If you will have operative Germany and probably the managers of the 594 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:35.559 future when you bring another turn on top of that, values again is less 595 00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.599 because these guys will regulate. So I think creating your car team spending up 596 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.719 a bit more time at the outset, and I think the last thing is 597 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.840 do not act under time pressure. You know, you mentioned that your clients 598 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.880 call you when it's too late and stuff. You should not be pressured to 599 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.480 do anything. Um, I know it's easier said than done, but you've 600 00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.880 got to plan right. If you've got to do it, you've got to 601 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.880 plan and and and news companies like you guys. You know there is professional 602 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.599 out there is that job. They can take it away from you. And 603 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:12.159 I know that you probably obviously cost a little bit of money, but do 604 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:16.519 you really cost more than messing it up? Do you really cost more than 605 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.719 mere recruiting stree gays in one country and nine months later realizing that down on 606 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:24.239 the right people? Particularly if I'm a tech company in the investments you put 607 00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.840 in would be massive. If you've got to law suits in Germany because you 608 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.840 don't follow the Hur Procedure Right, I am sure that you get your money 609 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.119 back. So just just doing the right things and being set up properly. 610 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.239 First of all, we'll help you to attract talents so as I get your 611 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:45.119 right advice said properly and show if you go to Germany, which is my 612 00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:49.280 case, I want to show to the German people have come from interview that 613 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.000 we mean it, we mean to open in Germany. We choose it. 614 00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:57.239 We want to be there and I want there. I want them to be 615 00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.599 part of the German team, and then we're gonna get them to because you 616 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.159 get the US team and we've got all sorts of things where we are finding 617 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:07.320 people can kicking Sarch us, but you've got to minute, don't do it 618 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639 for for the wrong reason. You've you've got to really need it and be 619 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.000 doubt. I think that's that's the overriding message for me. If, if 620 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:20.360 you know the as a leadership group, you have to the focus is always 621 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.719 on revenue, Um, and culture is a is a is a hot topic 622 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:31.599 at HQ, but to build a really successful international business you have to focus 623 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:37.239 on culture day in, day out and it needs to be part of the 624 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.239 DNA and it cannot be, you know, just left to chance. I 625 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.719 agree with you. So thanks for all the insights, David. Unfortunately we 626 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.960 get into to the end of our recording time there, um, but it 627 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:52.199 was it was super good to have you on the show, you know, 628 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.639 to learn more about terror. I'll let you turn the table. It'll bit 629 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.719 around. I saw that coming. You know, you're asking me a lot 630 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.639 tough questions and I was US coming with all my sorts as well. So, 631 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.159 to be fair, I am it was a great conversation. If any 632 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.280 of ours that are looking for an international expansion, they want some support, 633 00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:13.719 they would like to find a company that can actually help them to navigate through 634 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.159 all the crap and get the things right. But my email is David Unitara 635 00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.639 dot io or they can find it on Linkedin at David Wall my mobile numbers 636 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.840 on on my linkedin page. But whereas, it was great to have you 637 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.199 on the show, so thank you very much for today. All Right, 638 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.000 thanks, Ray.