135: Cultural Considerations as You Enter New Markets

September 08, 2022 00:46:29
135: Cultural Considerations as You Enter New Markets
B2B Revenue Acceleration
135: Cultural Considerations as You Enter New Markets

Sep 08 2022 | 00:46:29

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Show Notes

Geographical expansion opens up a host of new opportunities, allowing you to tap into a new pool of both clients and talent. It’s a logical step for many businesses looking to grow and increase sales, as well as solidify brand awareness.

However, many people underestimate the impact cultural differences can have on business relations, both internal team members and external stakeholders.

Not only can this have an effect on the way you do business, but it can make it more difficult to protect company culture. It is important to strike a balance between incorporating the company's culture and respecting the customs of new territories.

In this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host Aurelien Mottier (Co-Founder and CEO at Operatix) sat down with David Wall (Founder & CEO at Unaterra).

They discuss the common mistakes companies make when setting up a business internationally, cultural differences to be aware of and how to respect them while still upholding the company culture.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.639 You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.599 software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:15.000 Let's get into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers 4 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:21.120 your entire go to market your organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:27.039 customer interactions, transform your organization into a revenue machine or unlock in reality and 6 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.960 helping your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io. 7 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.840 Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is 8 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.759 Lamtier and I'm here today with David Wall, founder and CEO at Unit Terr. 9 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:46.520 How are you doing today, David? Thanks you have a good holiday. 10 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.000 I was absolutely fantastic. Two weeks in Abisa with two kids, but 11 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.920 my name in the swimming pool work came back, so tad. That's uh, 12 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.960 yeah, really had a good time. But yeah, today, David, 13 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.359 with you, so we had the conversation quite a lot about wow, 14 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.640 I don't want to steal your offenders. You'll explain to audience what you do, 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.239 but today we'll be speaking about cultural consideration as you enter on your market 16 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.000 we are the importance of that and you've got to turn off expense. I 17 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.200 think it's going to be a good exposure for audience. But, as I 18 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:19.959 said, before we get into a topic, would you mind just giving a 19 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.560 little bit of an introduition as to yourself, David, but also the company, 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:29.680 your present Unitarraa and what you do? So My name is David Wall 21 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.040 I'm the CEO of units era. We're a UK headquarters business. We have 22 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:40.480 operations in in the UK, in the US and in Asia. Um, 23 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:48.959 we've advised an excessive five CFOs F D S HR directors and they're wider management 24 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:55.840 teams around setting up operations in international markets. We typically work with fast growth 25 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:01.760 businesses that are in a hurry to grab new revenue and get stable operations, 26 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:07.280 as I said, in the new international market. So our call service offering 27 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.159 is advising around whether they need legal entities, Um, what kind of tax 28 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.759 registrations they need to make in a particular country. We run international payroll, 29 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:23.280 we have a fully outsourced international HR team and we also do the accounting and 30 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:30.800 tax compliance. So effectively customers can run their front office, grow their sales 31 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:36.159 and revenue and we take care of all the back office compliance. That's wonderful. 32 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.199 A big, big pain that you remove from the from the clans, 33 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.280 I'm sure, from your clients, Um. So, David, you've been 34 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:47.919 helping a lot of these companies in developing internationally, especially from the HR front. 35 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.039 But from your perspective, Western must common mistake that you've seen your clients 36 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.080 making. Our prospect as are makings when setting up a business internationally. So 37 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:05.360 it's a really good question, Ray, and you know we've we've supported customers 38 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:10.199 in over a hundred countries probably, Um, over the course of unit terrorist 39 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:16.240 history and we're operating about seventy countries today currently. So, as you can 40 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:23.199 imagine, we've witnessed lots of different mistakes, errors, Um, interesting scenarios, 41 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:30.400 Um, in supporting all these businesses. I think I think probably there's 42 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:37.199 a couple of things that first one is a lack of appreciation of the international 43 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.360 landscape. So what do I mean by that? So a lot of our 44 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:45.159 customers are US headquartered, not exclusively, but a lot of them are. 45 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.080 And when you look at if you just take the employment landscape in the UK 46 00:03:52.240 --> 00:04:00.840 and all the associated legislation and laws around employing people in the UK, and 47 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.759 then when you think. Okay, so that's complex in itself, and then 48 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:12.479 you you move a couple of hours across the pond to France and the employment 49 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:18.319 landscape is native degrees different and it's completely it's completely under a different set of 50 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:27.040 rules, incredibly complex. And then you go an hour to the left and 51 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.959 you've got Germany and it's the same again, and Spain. So so the 52 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:39.879 complexity around going international is very real and the associated costs for getting it wrong 53 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:46.959 are can be significant. So so that's one of the things that we we 54 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:54.600 we we often see. You can't stereotype all companies and you know, and 55 00:04:54.759 --> 00:05:00.319 every business has a different risk profile too, an appetite to risk. But 56 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.879 we were, as I said, we worked with a lot of US companies 57 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.600 and they're they're in a hurry and I want to grab revenue and they're being 58 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:13.639 driven by their investors or their CEO or their their leadership team to grow revenue 59 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:19.439 and Um, we are often at pains to pull them back to to to 60 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:26.560 make sure that they do understand the implications of hiring in an international market because, 61 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.079 as I said, getting it wrong is expensive. So that's that's one 62 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:34.879 area. Another area is is one size doesn't fit all you know and it 63 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:42.399 ties into the point I made earlier around Um that you can't have a vanilla 64 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.720 approach in terms of hiring. With a lot of customers we you know and 65 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.680 a lot of the conversations that we have it's you know, we might be 66 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:55.319 working with a UK customer and they want to go into eastern Europe somewhere, 67 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.480 whether it be Poland or or Hungary, and they'll say, you know, 68 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.639 can we use the UK important contracts? And the answer is what you can 69 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:11.160 again, and you can't just use you can't have a cookie cutter approach to 70 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.480 this kind of Um expansion project. It just doesn't work. I agree with 71 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.879 you. I think there is an excitement around the boat table when we speak 72 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:28.120 about geographical expansion. Um. There is a there is a difficulty. I 73 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.439 think it goes both way. From my experience, right. So, our 74 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:38.199 first geographical expansion was from the UK to North America, right, and I 75 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:47.560 ended up with five years I R S investigation that we closed off successfully literally 76 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.560 six months ago, right, simply because from we've not done anything wrong, 77 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.920 we've not done any tax but we did not have the document in place. 78 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.519 We didn't have the rights transfer, pricing information we had something, but he 79 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.959 was very clumsy. It was a matter is the business was two years old 80 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.800 start appear. We put that on the back of an envelope and we said 81 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.720 what could with it? Or Trust me, when you deal with the I 82 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:21.560 R S, going that tough man then and they are not really understandable, 83 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:27.560 you know, they don't really make an effort to understand you and your presume 84 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.079 guilty before you you do anything else. So you've you've got to fight to 85 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:34.120 prove that you've not done anything wrong and provide lots of information. But that 86 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:39.319 was extremely painful. And now that you're opening an office in Germany, as 87 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.839 you know, like as we speak, transfer pricing is one of the first 88 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.079 things we look at. You know, you learn from your mistake, but 89 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.839 my finger still burning from the tires. I mean the emotion we went through 90 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.800 through theodit was really painful. So I think that's one thing that you didn't 91 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.120 mention. That it's also important. I know you had to train to brush 92 00:07:55.240 --> 00:08:00.319 very broadly on topics, but even tax implication, right, was tax? 93 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.279 You know, you can set up an identity in Germany or identity in in 94 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:07.759 eastern Europe and explain to pay no tax and just get all your taxes back 95 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.079 in the UK or your text in the US. So you will have to 96 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.879 make sure that you get things salted. I mean North America. We all 97 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.279 know that you've got your copyright text, but then you've got the employee tax. 98 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.439 That may differ from one step to the other. You also need to 99 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.759 be aware of that because you need to deal with it. You need to 100 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:28.160 be prepared and there is a great level of complexity and I think people, 101 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.319 I think that it myself and thinking that it was good enough to do it 102 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.159 on my own. Now we just we just just raise our hands. We 103 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.759 speak to tax advisor, we speak to h our advisor, we've got local 104 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.799 lawyers. The first thing you do is to set up a team around you, 105 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.399 but you want to speak to local lawyers. You've got to, because 106 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:52.039 you made a good point between the international market and the local complexity. And 107 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.559 then the iron issue. Right. I could try, we could try, 108 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.879 everybody could try to go and work with German resources with the UK employment contract, 109 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.360 but the German being risked verse, your chances are for finding the right 110 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.759 people with that sort of things is not great. You will probably get the 111 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.600 people that won't get a job a new else they will accept the complexity. 112 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.000 So you know, I think you've got to be very aware of all the 113 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:20.000 other things that can happen. It's not just about visiting an office, sending 114 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.679 a check, getting the keys, getting in, putting your stuff and your 115 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.039 logo on the wall and if you go, but it's really about setting up 116 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.120 the the operation properly, and then you've got to think about the relationship between 117 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:37.480 that operation and the mother ship and how do that work, and that's what 118 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.279 the tax advisor needs to come and you need to be smart. You need 119 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.799 to make sure also as you pay tax wise due, which is another thing 120 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.440 that people are discussing, because corporation tax has been better in the UKITY. 121 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.279 Maybe any while it's in the world at the moment. Okay, that may 122 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.960 change. It's wait for you for but all those things, from my perspective, 123 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:01.240 are all the complexity. For me, I guess, the employment for 124 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:05.320 being French and I've been studying you management of small businesses. So we've we've 125 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.679 got HR and it's very funny because I was meeting with the lawyer two weeks 126 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.440 ago in Germany to discuss the employment contract and the way to manage resources is 127 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.480 completely different right. If someone lies during the interview process about something that they've 128 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.519 done, you actually keep that on track. If that, if their contract 129 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.440 said they only have one job, but at the weekend they do Google driving 130 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.480 or the deliver pizzas or whatever, you may not just tell them and confront 131 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.120 them on Monday morning. You keep that on track on five right. Why? 132 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.320 Because the day you need to do something with them, you've got all 133 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.320 this information about them basically breaching the contract that you can use against them. 134 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.159 Because if it's very difficult. So it's a completely different market. In the 135 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.759 US it's unemployer lets. If you are the employer, you are the king. 136 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.080 You can you can say to someone you are sacked and they have to 137 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:56.320 walk out, and there is literally pretty much no right. In France, 138 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.759 is the employee that's got the power. In Germany, your employee got the 139 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.519 power. And then when you get a company with more than twenties or two 140 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.799 people, you've got to syndicate. People can create unions, and that's the 141 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:13.960 thing that you need to really look at and that's why you can't do it 142 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.480 with just your own desk research. There is not a website that we give 143 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.279 your the information. There is not a book that we give your the information, 144 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.159 because that's changing also all the time. So really getting is an organization 145 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.919 like yourself, AH and hi expert, tax expert, luckily, that can 146 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.200 speak to your tax expert in the UK, to your hi expert in the 147 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.120 UK and let those groups organize each other. Is absolutely fundamental. So I 148 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:46.279 do appreciate what you say, David. Yeah, just just talking through that 149 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:52.200 scenario and thanks for sharing that right in terms of your own experience one of 150 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.080 the Times. Back to the initial question, the one of the things that 151 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:01.720 we find is typically the business is that we work with they'll either they'll either 152 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.200 have raised some money or they will be sat on money and they're going to 153 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:13.360 invest it in a in a new market and they want to get there in 154 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.360 a hurry. They but they they don't typically, and I'm not saying that 155 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.720 this is the way to do it, but it ties into the point again. 156 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.480 Normally, you know, the senior management attached to do with it, 157 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.440 to to do an international expansion on top of their day job, and it's 158 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:37.679 so complex that it's, you know, and time consuming that it just soaks 159 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.200 up a lot of a lot of that time around the C suite. Yeah, 160 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:50.679 again, the planning and the understanding around, whether it's attacks, whether 161 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.080 it's the HR, whether it's, you know, to your point around when 162 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:01.559 you settle that operation in North America or in Europe and electing that back to 163 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:07.080 the mothership in terms of how you drive your culture and how you Um, 164 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:16.080 you know, you your values are transposed onto those satellite or subsidiary operations. 165 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.720 It's a really significant thing in terms of if you want to, you know, 166 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:28.279 have a successful result and therefore investment is required, not necessarily financial investment, 167 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:33.120 but emotional, emotional investment. You're is a good point, David, 168 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.879 because you know that we speak about the technical side of things right, so 169 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.759 that's the borrowing part from a perspective. But you know this is this is 170 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.039 to be done. You know you've got to get the finance right. You 171 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.759 need to know you're going to produce your accounts, was gonna set the accounts 172 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.679 and you know, produce the numbers in in the country you are going and 173 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.039 all that. Your contractor employment needs to be spot on as well. So 174 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.159 all the sorts of things are important, but you just kind of touched onto 175 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.840 the emotional and for me I would just almost connect emotional with culture because that's 176 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.879 the other thing. People expect that everybody will do as the bunch of people 177 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.759 who are working for the motorship are doing, but that's not the case. 178 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.600 It's like landing on a new planet. You know, you've got people who've 179 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.200 got different culture and you've got to appreciate that. It comes the question of 180 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:24.679 how do you transport your culture from one place to the other? And before 181 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.000 I tell you how we go about it, I'd like to know if you 182 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:31.440 see, have you seen the culture issue being a big you know, everything 183 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.480 is done perfectly across the team. Dot on the eyes. We've got the 184 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.879 contract of employment, we've got the office, we've got the account and the 185 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:45.720 tax, the HR people. Everything is nicely done. We are tight from 186 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.360 a contract perspective. Say CFO is all over the moon with us, and 187 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.159 now we start to get a team of Phive, six, seven people, 188 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.759 but for some reason they're not really responding. So I'm not gonna ask you 189 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.879 if you came across the scenario because I'm sure you because you'll get that little 190 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.679 grill on your face. But what do you think is the biggest issue that 191 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.399 people do is a culture? Keep asking you the same question about the biggest 192 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:15.600 issue I think country is probably the second most important or the legal pace. 193 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:24.159 So yeah, and look, culture is an enormous topic in itself and you 194 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.600 know, very often, um it's it's an own it's a topic in its 195 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:33.159 own right, whether it's, you know, a strategy point, whether it's 196 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:37.840 operational, whether it's academic. And you know there's a couple of people, 197 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.200 Keith Warburton and Patty McCarthy are two people that Spring to mind, that we 198 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.960 know that all they do is focus on on this area, whereas for us, 199 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.679 what we see is, you know, as a CEO of Unitarre, 200 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.840 I see how we try to transpose our own, you know, mothership culture 201 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:07.039 onto the onto the onto our other subsidiary companies, but also obviously witness firsthand 202 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:14.759 the trials and tribulations of our customers that are trying to Um, you know, 203 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.879 make sure that there that their their their operations internationally is successful, and 204 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:23.559 we don't see that the inner workings of that. So you know, it's 205 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:30.360 really my own thoughts on on how unit tear our business and how we drive 206 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:36.840 our culture and the type of things that we do. So for us, 207 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:42.519 I think it's the starting point is is really understanding what what our values are 208 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.919 and what our business is all about. Right. So, you know, 209 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:52.480 in the UK we're part of a bigger group and we we are. We're 210 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.440 on a journey and we're talking about, you know, taking pride in our 211 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:03.360 work, contributing to customers succes, test game changing solutions. So that's all. 212 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.519 That's all nice and good, Um, but you've got to live and 213 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:14.359 breed it. And and I think from a leadership standpoint, the culture starts 214 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.119 there, but it doesn't stop there. It can't. It can't be leadership 215 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.039 going this is what I think, this is what we're going to do. 216 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.880 Do it right. It's got to we're talking about human beings here that all 217 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:27.839 get up in the morning. They all have their own different sets of challenges. 218 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.559 They all Um, you know, inherently, I think human beings want 219 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.039 to do well. So they need to be clear about Um, what is 220 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:45.880 what is the overall vision? And particularly when you have operations internationally, it's 221 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.000 very easy to forget the cultural piece. It's almost like these a metrics. 222 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.880 This is what you need to deliver as part of you know, let's take 223 00:17:53.920 --> 00:18:00.200 operatics as an example, and culture gets forgotten. But if you're going to 224 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.279 take people on the journey, and it is a journey and I want to 225 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.200 put the question back on you in a minute because I'd love to know how 226 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.079 you manage your, you know, your US team, because it's such a 227 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.000 a big part of your team now. But yeah, it's so for me 228 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:18.640 it's it's about being accessible, it's about so they understand what the overall vision 229 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:25.680 is. It's about being accessible, it's about being really transparent between, you 230 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.880 know, all of the employees. We have a very flat structure at unit 231 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.599 terror. So, Um, you know, anybody can message me at any 232 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.240 time, whether they're in Bristol in the UK or whether they're in New York. 233 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:45.440 And that takes hard work. It's constantly evolving process and I think with 234 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.759 culture ray it's not a work on it for one or two months and then 235 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.839 put it in the top of put it in the top draw and forget about 236 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.359 it. Constantly, constantly having to work on it, work on it, 237 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.160 work on it, working it because operatics probably, like unit terror, like 238 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.759 most businesses around the world, there is this movement of employees. So some 239 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:14.359 people some some employees will stay a very long time. Some people decide. 240 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.720 Actually, you know, I've decided to move on. So you're constantly having 241 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:26.599 to educate and work harder, driving your values throughout the whole organization, and 242 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:33.680 that is it's it's hard work and when you when you lay around all of 243 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.240 the complexity of going international, which we talked about earlier in the core, 244 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.799 it requires a huge amount of effort, not just from leadership but from everybody. 245 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.000 I agree with you. I think it's Um. You're probably the name 246 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.960 on yet for me, when you mentioned the consistency of it, Um simply 247 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.640 because for me, you know, he's still I know we're all very smart 248 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.359 people and all that, but there is still a little bit of an animal 249 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.079 feeling in where we are and I believe that we've all in tribes. I 250 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.559 think, you know, there's people that we probably prefer the look of for 251 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.319 the way they are than some other and that's coming from our education, is 252 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.839 coming from lots of things. I do believe that, you know, we 253 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.279 are read all the stuff about leadership and culture and also things, but I 254 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.839 think that things are very more, you know, primal tribal, tribal than 255 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.279 that. And you know that you've named the culture when the people in the 256 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:33.839 team are self regulating the culture themselves. Right, we speak about a lot 257 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.839 of things, the non negotiable, the values, the behaviors, blah blah, 258 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.839 blah, blah, blah blah, but they all come back to one 259 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.160 thing, which is setting up a group of rules. She's like, you 260 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.400 know, the laws, the religions and stuff like that. You know, 261 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.880 don't care because that's not cool. Don't share because it's not great. You 262 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:53.799 know, all these sort of things. We have to put some rules that. 263 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.119 Well, if you don't do it, there will be some consequences. 264 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:02.599 Okay, and I think it's no really difficult, no more difficult than that. 265 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:06.480 And what's difficult is to find the people, the core group of people 266 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.680 that will be happy to be like a UH, a police player, like 267 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.759 the captains, the team captains, someone would work the albums if I was 268 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.559 on a football pitch and come and shout at me because I'm not moving my 269 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.279 ass on the pitch right and tell me, look, if you don't do 270 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.160 it, I'm gonna asked for you to be some because we so who is 271 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.519 this kind of and we call that the leadership. For me, that's more 272 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.480 like the Alpha type of the group and the people who really get it personally, 273 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:37.640 when someone is not respecting the culture like you turn up at nine thirty 274 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.559 when we supposed to that to start at nine. You want the team to 275 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:44.599 self regulate that guy. You should not be a manager, you should be 276 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.079 the team. You know, sending them the girls, looking at them and 277 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:49.799 said, what's going on? This is not the way we work here. 278 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.559 Yeah, it's a non negotiable what you're doing. You don't want to be 279 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.839 part of that group. Well, if you don't want to be part of 280 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.599 that group, WE'RE gonna self regulate you out of that group. You know, 281 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.240 and that's the difficult bit. The difficult bit is how do you find 282 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:11.039 people that are consistently fighting for the right values, that are constant? And 283 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.640 I'm not. You know, it's difficult and that's one of our difficulty maybe 284 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.880 sometimes in the US where our managers make your bad behavior but don't act on 285 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.759 it. Well, what happened when you do that is that everybody look at 286 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.799 the bad behavior and say that's okay, it's okay to be Sti mute late. 287 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.960 You know, Bob didn't get any didn't get in trouble for that right 288 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.279 and I think if I was in the office I would probably dress down bub 289 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.960 a little bit. And that is old school. People don't like that and 290 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.200 lots of boxation that do it and stuff, but I think there are things 291 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.119 that you need to do behind behind closed door when it's, you know, 292 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.319 personally work related, when it's attitude related, if it's attitude not ability related, 293 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.480 or if it's attitude, I think there is part of it that needs 294 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.279 to be addressed in front of the group. Yeah, it's like a pack 295 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:00.759 of wold when you've but one that just go and stopped to buy the hair 296 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:06.920 of the other one and everybody knows that. You know they don't. They've 297 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.680 got to look up and you're sending a message to everyone and it's that repetition 298 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.200 of the message with someone making a mistake. You've got the things. I 299 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:22.359 even do something sometimes which is actually I've actually learned that, rightly or wrongly, 300 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.200 from S Alex Ferguson. For people who are not in the UK, 301 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.880 it was. It was the football coach of Manchester. I mean you must 302 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.640 have been living on the rock to not know with Alex valution, but it 303 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.480 was soccer for Manchester United, or football if you're European, and their coach 304 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.079 for a long time and what you would do at all of time he would 305 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:44.839 probably if the team is a big compleasant he will pick the best player on 306 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.559 the pitch and give them absolute ships. So all the other one that are 307 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.079 thinking Whoa David was the best player on the pitch and he's getting it proper. 308 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.559 Everybody step up. I know it's bad, I know you're not supposed 309 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.680 to do it. I know we may have a few glass door review that 310 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.240 are not happy with that because you can't please everyone when you've got stronger people 311 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.759 working for you. But I think to your point, I think you the 312 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.960 way we go about it. So you asked me about the how kind of 313 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.599 went to the y and the sort of the sort process. But they how 314 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.480 is that we will try to find someone. So, for example, here 315 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.880 in the UK we've got the chance to have a guy. His name is 316 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:26.599 will Taylor. Um is a good guy, good company boy, very close 317 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.079 to the team, always want to do the right thing, really want to 318 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.759 progress within operatics. We've got a good relationship with him. His heart is 319 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.240 in the right place. You know, he's got to develop the abilities, 320 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.960 but he's got everything. It's just we need to teach him the abilities and 321 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.720 now he's got an opportunity of taking what he's done in the UK. So 322 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.960 He's been running team in the UK to do it in Germany. Yeah, 323 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.079 we're gonna transfer. He's a German native, right, so you can transfer 324 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.119 that. But we've got someone that is a very bad payer. We aren't 325 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.319 grooming but it gets you know what we do. We are not a bunch 326 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.160 of account that operatics. There is a method, there is there is a 327 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.759 very specific playbook for what we do. We constructort someone from the alten and 328 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.160 expect them to manage a team. We've got to train them, we've got 329 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.079 to enable them, we've got to spend time with them. But now you 330 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.319 can take that and he knows the culture and trust me, you would not 331 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.240 want to cross him because he probably would tell you right, because it's been 332 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.720 told and it's been batter it's been part of that group where if someone leave 333 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.519 the table early without asking you, they can leave the table. It's like, 334 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.400 what are you doing? This is not good. We don't do that. 335 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:34.440 We are polite with each other. We do this with that. So 336 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.640 we've got that guy and that guy can be the first personal his mission is 337 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.400 to find the pillars, the foundation that will be able to first forward two 338 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:52.079 years be the winds in that of the space and so we can grow with 339 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:57.079 them. So it's about finding people in the interview process and reporting on the 340 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.680 value, or it in more on values, or you want the ability as 341 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:04.359 well, but you would want value and core skills, if you will, 342 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.400 and then developing these people because they've got the right value and they already believe 343 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.039 in the value we want to push, which are, you know, we 344 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.960 cat them behavior actually, because the world value is a bit I think. 345 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.759 I find it a bit strange. Everybody's got their own st of value. 346 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:25.559 But so we talk about professionalism, conscientiousness, resilience and accountability. Right. 347 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.960 So that's the far key behavior. We want our leaders to have. An 348 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.000 accountability is keeping the other accountable as much as yourself, and that, for 349 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:41.039 us, is important. So answer your question, is ideally finding someone that 350 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.799 is with us, that can relocate right the way we open up the US. 351 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.240 My business partner at the time is not involving the business anymore, but 352 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.799 my business partner at the time actually moved to North America. You know, 353 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.079 he was there on the posit of the time. Okay, and you know 354 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.519 it's how you got to start it, because you are there, you can 355 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.319 really see what's going on and be in the trenches. I think lots of 356 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.599 people just think that they're gonna do one local recruitment and I've did it so 357 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:15.240 many times. Oh yeah, expansion in Apac or or expansion in the US 358 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.000 or expansion in Germany, and really work out why. Why is the first 359 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.079 man on the ground? Was Not good and every single time is the firstman 360 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.160 on the ground because they don't have the culture. They don't get it. 361 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.279 And if you can, and it's difficult because it's a commitment for people, 362 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.640 but getting someone that you know, you can trust, that knows the value, 363 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:40.039 is a good employee to go and then support them in building a teams. 364 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.880 They can be surrounded by people that are smart, coachable but also have 365 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:48.200 the right behaviors and understand the cultures through this behavior. But you don't need 366 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.119 to tell them the culture. You've got an issue when you've got to say, 367 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:56.279 well, our culture is is that? Yeah, it's it's got to 368 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.880 come from them if they need to have the culture pretty much before they join. 369 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.799 Yes, most of the success stories. It's a really, really good 370 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:12.039 point actually and it's not an obvious one to perhaps the listeners of of of 371 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:22.319 this podcast, but certainly from my experience the companies that have relocated a senior 372 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.279 leader from HQ to the new market. Now there is costs associate with that. 373 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.200 You know, these visas, this, you know, if you know 374 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:36.359 this, this children having to move schools, probing the wrong game, if 375 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:40.279 the wrong gay. You'RE gonna have six months before you find out, eight 376 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.440 months before you find out, because they will obviously tell you a fantastic story 377 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:47.319 to get that job. And you know because are you don't understand, David. 378 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:48.759 The market is different. Yeah, that's where we need to add out. 379 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:52.119 Oh yeah, but your guys, you always have to sort of things 380 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.119 where someone is afraid to tell you. In Germany is fundamentally different. Oh 381 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.200 yeah, well, yeah. So, so what happenpens then? And to 382 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.680 your point, where is Um? I think you said? Was it matt 383 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:10.640 was a win win. Sorry. Yeah, so so will who will be 384 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.599 going over to Germany? Like you said, he's lifting the operatics culture over 385 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:22.599 to the German business. You avoid hiring individuals that are not you know, 386 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:29.839 they haven't got operatics DNA in them, and you're not rolling that dice hoping 387 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.839 for a six but getting a one. Yeah, so we've seen that a 388 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:41.839 lot and it's it's very it's it's not always the case because you know, 389 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.799 as I said earlier in the conversation, a lot of our customers are in 390 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.440 a hurry and to relocate somebody takes time and that might not be a commodity 391 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:53.640 that you that you have. It sounds like in your instance, you know 392 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:57.920 it's thought through on this, probably because you've learned the mistakes of the US. 393 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.359 You know, sometimes the stars just aligned. So he won't fully relocate 394 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.599 to Germany, but in that in that particular scenario, Um, he happens 395 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.680 to have his family living just outside of another. We're gonna Open the office 396 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:17.680 in another twenty minutes away. He's gonna be able to see his parents more 397 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:22.559 often, which he likes the idea of. But he's also got a girlfriend 398 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.039 in in in the in the UK. So technically, you know, no 399 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.200 kids at the moment. Just the situation will probably evolve over time, but 400 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.960 at the moment no kids. A bit more freedom to take that sort of 401 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.559 faction and do that sort of things and put that in the CV Um and 402 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.160 the ability to go back to go back and forth. So we don't want 403 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.119 him to be there and completely relocated. We probably will get a flat, 404 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.680 but we will want him to spend a fir amount of time there and then 405 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.440 we will change with other managers. We've got operation directors who are British or 406 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:53.759 English or French or whatever that will also go to manage the teams. But 407 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:59.119 we will try to always have a finger on the pulse down there. We 408 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.200 always have some in the in the office, not because we want to big 409 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.119 brother the people, but because we think it's first of all, is critical 410 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:07.599 that they get to know the people and they manager on the leadership. And 411 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.200 there is also something with culture thick. We don't speak enough about relationships. 412 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.079 The people need to feel love. And how do you feel them? How 413 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.599 do you make them feel love? What you make them feel love by going 414 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.160 down and actually speaking to them and not speaking to them about work, but 415 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.359 trying to attend under who they are. So that's something that we try to 416 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:29.440 do a lot as the leadership team. Um, particularly in today's market with 417 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.440 covid where you know I mean on Lincin, we try to do a party 418 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.920 pretty much everymounts to get people together. Um, we're lucky. We've got 419 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.839 lots of things to celebrate at the moment. But when we do these parties, 420 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.079 we just breath. The leadership team and slogay is remember, we are 421 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.799 not staying amongst each other. We're gonna go and speak to all the people 422 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.480 that you've never met before. We're gonna go and introduce ourselves. If it 423 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.000 is someone in the corner, this is difficult, right. If I have 424 00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.920 a work party in two thousand and eighteen, I've already know everybody in there. 425 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.559 This because I spent my life with them. So when I go there 426 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:06.400 we've already got stories, I know stuff, we can pick up conversation that 427 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.400 we are I can speak about football and stuff. If I'm the new guy 428 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:13.720 coming from Manchester for my first event with Operatics, I may know a few 429 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.839 people in my team, but there is literally seventies stranger in front of me. 430 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.440 It's like going to a wedding or you just know your wife and a 431 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.359 couple of friends. Right. You want people to make you feel comfortable. 432 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.160 You want people to go around and introduce themselves to you and say, Hey, 433 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.400 go and meet that guy and that guyls funny. You say that, 434 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.319 have you met that guy? And you start to create this connection, right, 435 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.920 and that's the thing that the role of leadership sometimes for culture. Another 436 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:44.359 thing that I've seen is maybe leadership staying in the ivory tower. You can't 437 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.039 do it without investing into it and you've got to invest in human capital and 438 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:52.440 make them feel love, and that will go through actually having exchange with them. 439 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.480 And I know that there is a certain size where you know if you've 440 00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:58.559 got five people, it's going to be difficult and you've got to do one. 441 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.599 Too many want to feel but I think it's important to have some sort 442 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:07.359 of connection with the people. It sounds like we're we're both lovers of Alex 443 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.480 Ferguston, but I was listening to a podcast. Me Get up to direct 444 00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:15.000 now that that's that's me. So I was listening to a podcast this morning 445 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:20.599 from about so it was diary of the CEO and it was Gary Neville and 446 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:25.160 he was talking about what Alex Ferguson did. Well, right, and he 447 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.359 would treat Um, he would, he would treat the lady in the laundry 448 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:36.119 room, yeah, or the lady that makes the teas and coffees in the 449 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.200 in the restaurant the same as he would the striker that he just paid fifty 450 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:45.839 million four. Yeah, and if and and and, if he ever saw 451 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:52.400 you know people who were perceived to be lower in the food chain being called 452 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.599 out by the stars. He would stamp on that and I know that might 453 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.160 seem like old school, but I think to your point about everybody needs to 454 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.199 be on the bus and everybody needs to feel that they have a value in 455 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.320 terms of the journey. And there's the CEO and the leadership, you know, 456 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.119 those, those conversations with those new people that have started and making them 457 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:25.199 feel part of the unit terror or operatics journey. Whilst it's all time and 458 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:31.000 it's all you know, Um, you could be you could be telling stories 459 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.119 with the colleagues that have been there for, you know, since the time 460 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.960 invested in those New People is absolutely critical. To my point at the beginning 461 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.559 of the conversation, it's never ending this. It's an evolving process of taking 462 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:49.719 people on the journey. I agree with you. The thing was the staff 463 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.639 is critical. You know, I just make a point. Australian the US, 464 00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:57.800 you know you've got you've got the office clean out coming in the evening 465 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:00.679 and I was in the US. Obviously nobody's Ye know, to them. 466 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.000 Likely they don't mind them, they don't do anything wrong to them, but 467 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:06.679 they don't really interact with them. So I went to speak to them and 468 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.800 say hello and thank you so much for keeping the office clean. I just 469 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.920 wanted to know if there is anything we could do better. Do you think 470 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.199 we are messy? And I appreciate your job. When I started in the 471 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.199 UK my first job was cleaning office in the morning, so I spoke to 472 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:21.599 them about that's looking particulate the toilets and stuff. She's annoying me when people, 473 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.000 you know, treat the office space like and I can leave my mudther 474 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.719 someone would just clean it for me. Would you do that at them now? 475 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.880 You want Um so and and you know it's a very small percentage of 476 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.800 the population, but I think doing that sort of things and people ask you 477 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.159 us, well, that was very nice what you've done. It's not nice, 478 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.239 it's normal. They are part of the team, right, and if 479 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:47.039 you are nice to them, your desk maybe a little bit cleaner when someone 480 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.880 else's desk. We used to live like. I used to live like anvilment. 481 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.239 To be fair, it's easier for me because I used to do of 482 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.920 his cleaning. So I've been doing that and my mom, you know, 483 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:58.840 when I grew up she was cleaning other people else. That's what our job 484 00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.840 so, you know, probably get a little bit more an emotional connection, 485 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:06.159 but you know, living an envelope for Christmas with a little card and like 486 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:08.760 a ten pound note saying thank you so much for, you know, cleaning 487 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.920 all my crap or you're along. Really appreciate you have a great Christmas. 488 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:20.079 Right. That's probably makes that person day massively right and I think this is 489 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.039 really the things that I'm missing. We all speak about Blah Blah, blah, 490 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.599 Blah Blah Blah, the techniques and dad and all the stuff, but 491 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.719 just forget to just actually be kind with people. You know, do sect 492 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:35.199 of kindness. is also what we have the team to do amongst each other 493 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.039 and say you pick up the people, don't wait for your manager to go 494 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:44.039 and introduce that person. We want people and will naturally welcome the new starter. 495 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.719 Make them feel good, introduce them to people, show them the ropes 496 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.519 and be kind, because you know, that's just the type of environment. 497 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.880 You can create all culture you want, but if people are really king with 498 00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.880 each other, I think that's really what you got. You nail it on 499 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.000 yeah, then you've got a good group. And I think when you've got 500 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.679 the ability to be physically in the same location. It's a lot easier. 501 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:13.079 But I have to think. Ray. I'll give you an example of you 502 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:16.719 know, so if I'm if if I wake up, and so as a 503 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.000 CEO you have to get used to waking up and normally having some bad news 504 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.719 in the inbox in the morning. That's just life as a CEO, right. 505 00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:32.400 So the easy thing to do is to fire off emails to hear whoever 506 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.360 it is and say, why is this happen? Why is that happen? 507 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.039 What's going on here? What's doing on that? When you've got when you 508 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:45.679 and that's that. I have to temper that. Just in the UK business, 509 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.559 okay, because I'm trying to mature as a CEO. Managed the communication, 510 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:55.159 thinking about the impact of that individual when they get up in the morning 511 00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:02.360 and they get that email, that is shifting. Okay, when you transpose 512 00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:07.280 that to the states or Asia, they're not in that room, they they're 513 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.719 not physically in the same office as you and that ruins that day potentially, 514 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.639 particularly if they don't know what you are to tep down, you know, 515 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:23.039 because I think it's okay to have communication with people and tell them what they 516 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:27.920 do. I mean this is the concept of radical candle. But I think 517 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.760 with most of my leadership team, what I think. I'm glad we we 518 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:36.679 we've achieved this. We're gonna have some very honest conversation. We can call 519 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.000 out each other because we need to do it because there is something going wrong 520 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.360 and it needs to be sorted now, and we are we are professional and 521 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.360 we need to do it properly, but at the same time, you know, 522 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.760 we'll take a bullet for each other. You know, I think it 523 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.760 goes both way. I think you can be you can be direct with people, 524 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.800 but at the same time you need to make sure that in a situation 525 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.039 you protect them when they need to be protected. So it's kind of the 526 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.400 usual thing. If someone is down because they've got some stuff, you probably 527 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.400 don't want to send them the emails. So it's kind of knowing where everybody's 528 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.840 are at in them in some of their head and yes, kind of the 529 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.880 management on the one by one basis really, but I think sometimes also people 530 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.480 do need that sort of getting in the morning and reading that email and it 531 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.079 just wiped them up. But it's a balance. There's a balance, isn't 532 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.159 there? It's getting that balance right and it's about getting your timing right and 533 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.960 you will never get it right, you know. So that's the thing. 534 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.719 It's just sometimes people focus on one action, but sometimes you do one action 535 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.840 because you want to have one reaction and that's one reaction will go to the 536 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.840 rest of the team. Some of it is in what you should not do 537 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.079 is to try to transpose your problem on someone else. You've got to always 538 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.400 be called bloodied before you using that email. And you either want to start 539 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:54.159 a little bit of a war, you want to you want to light a 540 00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:00.079 bomb or something. But it's got to be intentional, not emotional. If 541 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.599 you do it emotionally because you're like look, I'm not gonna deal with that, 542 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.519 I'm gonna make it someone else problem, I don't think that's good. 543 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.239 I think if you are doing for the purpose of coaching an individual and make 544 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.519 them feel something that you think will let them in the coaching journey, it's 545 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:15.760 fine. It's okay that they don't like you, for they or two. 546 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.920 They'll come around and you sometimes have argument with people and you know, we 547 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:22.760 we we needed they are two. We don't speak much. It's it's really 548 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.119 bizarre, very childish in a way, but we don't speak much, but 549 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.960 we need to think and then we come and always usual things. Look, 550 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.599 I should not have reacted like that. Look, my phone was terrible, 551 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:35.400 but the content I still believe. Yeah, okay, this, that right. 552 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.559 We're good. Of course we're good. I don't know why your heart 553 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.400 is yeah, I know about that, and you know what actually quite and 554 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.760 then we all progress from it and then we will make you the good things 555 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.000 two days later, because it's a difficult science. I think you know the 556 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.960 people around you, and that's coming back to the point. Is that if 557 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.360 you just get someone brand new that you don't know, that don't know you, 558 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:58.039 that don't know you're on a personal level, that don't know yet, 559 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:00.840 that you would take a bullet for them, that don't not yet that you 560 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.199 will protect them under whatever circumstances, that don't really understand your manager, your 561 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.320 style, that's why your bravely. I add that with with we we recruit 562 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:12.599 the US GM last year, and I think it's just say that I was 563 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.079 being a pain because I was managing him like the rest of the team who 564 00:41:15.159 --> 00:41:20.880 knew me and know the way that I am, and and I think if 565 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.119 I've made some mistake with him, Um and, but you know, you 566 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.480 know right, as you said. You know, it's about trying to be 567 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.480 a better CEO every day, trying to be a better passing every day. 568 00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:36.480 In the process you're gonna ADK some people, you're gonna make some more fantastically, 569 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.960 you know, progress and create a bit of legacy in their life and 570 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:45.960 all that. And Yeah, so balance really and if I listened to you, 571 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:52.119 if I think about summarizing the this part of the conversation, so operatics. 572 00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:58.000 Obviously UK headquartered large operation in the US and now you're about to embark 573 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:05.639 on Germany, operations in Germany. Think a pro probably we want we want 574 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800 to be a scale up now. So we want to finish something before we 575 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.360 start something else. So we want to be complete or finisher. So we're 576 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.239 gonna get the German office, get a few people in there and get our 577 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.280 foundation right and then we moved to a back but we need to do a 578 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.559 back so and those foundations right. If you think about the lessons that you've 579 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.039 learned lifting somebody from another ship into new market, that's one lesson. Second 580 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:35.960 lesson is getting the right professional advice so you avoid I R S issues. 581 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.960 Oh Yeah, do that, avoid the R S. Yeah, anymore. 582 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.840 Um, yeah, I'd say. I'd say the creating a car team. 583 00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:52.199 Luckily so trying to recruit people change the way you would recruit people, because 584 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.320 I think if you've got a big group, you may not need to have 585 00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.880 people who fully have all the values because they will integrate and will be regulated 586 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:04.480 by the rest of the group. However, for a project like the German 587 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.719 project, we probably want our five first recruits to have the value that we've 588 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.519 got intrastic. We want them to have them internally. We don't want them 589 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.320 to teach them, we don't want so. We want them to really shows 590 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.400 when we piled the onion, that they've got all the right values. So 591 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.159 there will be naturals in this value. So then don't it matters n less 592 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.360 if you've got five of the score people. It will be seen as the 593 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.519 founder's member. If you will have operative Germany and probably the managers of the 594 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:35.559 future when you bring another turn on top of that, values again is less 595 00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.599 because these guys will regulate. So I think creating your car team spending up 596 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.719 a bit more time at the outset, and I think the last thing is 597 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.840 do not act under time pressure. You know, you mentioned that your clients 598 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.880 call you when it's too late and stuff. You should not be pressured to 599 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.480 do anything. Um, I know it's easier said than done, but you've 600 00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.880 got to plan right. If you've got to do it, you've got to 601 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.880 plan and and and news companies like you guys. You know there is professional 602 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.599 out there is that job. They can take it away from you. And 603 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:12.159 I know that you probably obviously cost a little bit of money, but do 604 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:16.519 you really cost more than messing it up? Do you really cost more than 605 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:21.719 mere recruiting stree gays in one country and nine months later realizing that down on 606 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:24.239 the right people? Particularly if I'm a tech company in the investments you put 607 00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.840 in would be massive. If you've got to law suits in Germany because you 608 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.840 don't follow the Hur Procedure Right, I am sure that you get your money 609 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.119 back. So just just doing the right things and being set up properly. 610 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.239 First of all, we'll help you to attract talents so as I get your 611 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:45.119 right advice said properly and show if you go to Germany, which is my 612 00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:49.280 case, I want to show to the German people have come from interview that 613 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.000 we mean it, we mean to open in Germany. We choose it. 614 00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:57.239 We want to be there and I want there. I want them to be 615 00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.599 part of the German team, and then we're gonna get them to because you 616 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.159 get the US team and we've got all sorts of things where we are finding 617 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:07.320 people can kicking Sarch us, but you've got to minute, don't do it 618 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639 for for the wrong reason. You've you've got to really need it and be 619 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.000 doubt. I think that's that's the overriding message for me. If, if 620 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:20.360 you know the as a leadership group, you have to the focus is always 621 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.719 on revenue, Um, and culture is a is a is a hot topic 622 00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:31.599 at HQ, but to build a really successful international business you have to focus 623 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:37.239 on culture day in, day out and it needs to be part of the 624 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.239 DNA and it cannot be, you know, just left to chance. I 625 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.719 agree with you. So thanks for all the insights, David. Unfortunately we 626 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.960 get into to the end of our recording time there, um, but it 627 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:52.199 was it was super good to have you on the show, you know, 628 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.639 to learn more about terror. I'll let you turn the table. It'll bit 629 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.719 around. I saw that coming. You know, you're asking me a lot 630 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.639 tough questions and I was US coming with all my sorts as well. So, 631 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.159 to be fair, I am it was a great conversation. If any 632 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:09.280 of ours that are looking for an international expansion, they want some support, 633 00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:13.719 they would like to find a company that can actually help them to navigate through 634 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.159 all the crap and get the things right. But my email is David Unitara 635 00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.639 dot io or they can find it on Linkedin at David Wall my mobile numbers 636 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.840 on on my linkedin page. But whereas, it was great to have you 637 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.199 on the show, so thank you very much for today. All Right, 638 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:29.000 thanks, Ray.

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