139: The JOLT Effect: Helping High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:06.160 You weren't listening to Be to Be Revenue Acceleration a podcast dedicated to helping software 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.320 executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:15.240 get into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your 4 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:22.199 entire go to market your organization by operationalizing you almost valuable asset your customer interactions, 5 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:28.079 transform your organization into a revenue machine or unlocking reality and helping your people 6 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:33.320 reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot io. Hi are 7 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.560 you welcome to be to Be a Revenue Acceleration? My name is aham with 8 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.920 you and I'm here today with Matt Dixon Coth of The Challenge Yourselves and the 9 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:44.479 George Effect. How are you today, Matt, Hey, Ray, how 10 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:47.240 are you doing? You're doing well. Yeah, as I was saying to 11 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.960 you in the preparation of this podcast, I'm very very excited to the conversation 12 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.280 with you. I've been a big, big, big, big fun of 13 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.359 the Challenge Yourselves and now you're coming with a new book, The Jogy Effect, 14 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:00.320 which is which is really what we want to discuss to day. And 15 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.159 in the Joint Effect, we speak about helping high performers of outcome of outcome, 16 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:10.120 sorry, customer indecision. Okay, your latest book is is designed to 17 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.879 be a playbook for sales people. We want to close the gap between customer 18 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.519 intent and action. Yeah, and and in ton of course it will This 19 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.879 would help them to close more cells. Can you please explain the concept behind 20 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.000 the book, but also touched maybe on the way you've been writing order this 21 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.280 book, because I think there is a ton of data, a ton of 22 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:30.959 results that goes into the writing. So I'd like you to give us a 23 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.079 little bit of a background around all that and why did your effect? Yeah, 24 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:37.560 sure, I'm happy to do it right. Um, So maybe just 25 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.439 to give a little bit of background on the research, because I think that's 26 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.680 part of the story. Actually, I think most of your listeners will remember 27 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:49.840 the dark days of March when you know, the pandemic, we're all in 28 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.159 lockdown, and as we all know, something really interesting happened in the world 29 00:01:53.159 --> 00:02:00.640 of sales right around that time, which is that sales flipped to virtual overnight 30 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:05.159 suddenly. You know. We yes, we always did some zoom meeting, 31 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:07.599 some teams meetings, you know, things like that during our sales, our 32 00:02:07.639 --> 00:02:15.240 sales process, but suddenly activity of sales interactions were happening virtually, and so 33 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.039 we decided that presented a golden opportunity for us, as we're sales researchers, 34 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.080 and so we decided to partner with several dozen companies across industry. We collected 35 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.400 two and a half million recorded sales calls um and then we used a machine 36 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.319 learning platform to study those so's we think it's the biggest study of actual sales 37 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.680 conversations that has ever been done. And it's something that you know, you 38 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.479 mentioned the Challenger sale before, but you know this technology Challenger Sale came out 39 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:46.039 in this technology didn't really exist back then, and so so much has changed, 40 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.919 uh in terms of machine learning and GPU processing and these kinds of things 41 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:55.000 that allow us to study big data sets like that. Now. The specific 42 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.319 question we were looking because there's a big data set, so we could ask 43 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.039 lots of questions and look for many things, but the specific thing we were 44 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:09.599 looking for was to try to understand what is it that causes a customer after 45 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:15.639 they've gone through an entire sales process with a salesperson. What is it that 46 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:20.039 would cause a customer to um end up in no decision, you know, 47 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:24.039 to go radio silent, to ghost the salesperson, to disengage, and you 48 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:29.080 know this happens a lot to salespeople. We found that anywhere between forty and 49 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:36.080 six of the average salesperson's total um pipeline will be lost to no decision. 50 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.080 So these are customers again who eat up valuable time from us. They spend 51 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:44.039 a lot of their own valuable time that of their organization, our team, 52 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.319 all the subject matter experts we bring to calls things like that. They'll engage 53 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:52.960 a proof in proof of concept or kind of pilot trials and end up doing 54 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.479 nothing. And so the question we were trying to get after, and this 55 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:58.360 is a trend we as we'll talk about we think is getting worse over time. 56 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.879 And so we looked at for the answer to that question, why is 57 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.599 it that a customer would end up doing nothing? And then I think, 58 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:10.240 more importantly to to the playbook point you made before, Ray, what is 59 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.960 it that the best sales people do differently? How do they avoid this kind 60 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.959 of outcome? So they get their customer from intent to action from saying I 61 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:23.920 want this too, I actually bought this, And and that's really where the 62 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.360 kind of interesting stuff came out in the research makes perfect sense. It's very 63 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:30.279 interesting. At two point two million chores, that's that's a fair few. 64 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:38.079 Do you think the data because if it was pus mush twenties, do you 65 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.920 think the data is even more relevant because it was also some sort of it 66 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.720 was a pandemic. I don't have the challenge yourselves in the change ad. 67 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.839 At the beginning of your guys are speaking about what makes the best sellers get 68 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:53.759 into a dum tell. Maybe you know, lots of people are mentioning the 69 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.560 big recission at the moment. So do you think all that data does make 70 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.560 even more sense in the current economic climate. Yeah, it's a really good 71 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.199 question. I think. Um, I think you could argue that for sure. 72 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:10.360 But you know it's interesting because I would say, really that March of 73 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:14.560 and that kind of springtime even into the summer was a really tough time for 74 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.480 companies, but the the economy came kind of roaring back, and so we 75 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:24.000 continue to collect calls all through one even into two. We continue to collect 76 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.279 data even to this day because what we find is there are a lot of 77 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.120 companies who read the book and then they say, well, we record our 78 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.360 sales calls, Can we send them to you guys, and can you tell 79 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.920 us how in decisive our our customers and our our best our sales people using 80 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.040 the techniques you talk about the book. So we're continuing to add to the 81 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.639 data set. And I don't we don't see a lot of variation in the 82 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.480 story from March of to today. But I do think that when I talk 83 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.920 to companies today and you mentioned the R word, you know, every sales 84 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.560 organization is worried about um, you know, an economic downturn and they're worried 85 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.759 about what it will mean for the sales organization for productivity, and so they 86 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.519 are. I'm talking to companies. I was in San Francisco a few weeks 87 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.920 ago for the launch of the book, and uh, I'll share with you 88 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:11.839 one company, c R oh of a big tech company. I saw him 89 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.399 on Monday that week and then and he told me he thinks there are no 90 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.920 decision loss rate was about forty. I saw him again on Friday and he 91 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.720 told me it had gone up to like just in the past five days. 92 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.680 And if it's because he's saying a lot of our customers are disengaging there, 93 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.040 they're um kicking the can down the road, so to speak. They're delaying 94 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.519 their decisions and they're trying to you know, because cash is came and there's 95 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:41.680 a lot of scrutiny right now. Now. I think what I argue typically, 96 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:45.319 um, and where we argue in the book, is that the recession 97 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.480 economic downturn will cause a spike in no decision. It's just natural that's going 98 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:55.279 to happen because there's so much scrutiny even on pretty small purchase decisions on the 99 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.959 on the customer side. Um. But I think that all of the things 100 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.199 that drive in decision are actually on a secular trend to getting worse. And 101 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.279 I think that's actually the bigger story. You know, when we wrote The 102 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.639 Challenger Sale, you mentioned this, right, it was a book that we 103 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.759 wrote about how to sell effectively in a downturn. But I think what we 104 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.240 learned was, uh that as we continue to collect data and we continue to 105 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.639 study how this these changes in customer buying behavior, that it wasn't a story 106 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:27.399 about selling in a downturn. It was a story about selling to customers who 107 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.279 can learn on their own. You know the world where customers disintermediate you and 108 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.079 they can do all their own research. And then they call you very late 109 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:36.399 and force you to compete on price. What kind of salesperson wins in that 110 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.560 environment, so it end up being about something much bigger, And I think 111 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.600 the jolt effect is is very similar in that regard. I think it's very 112 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.120 relevant right now. But I think the macro trend is that customers are becoming 113 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:54.079 more indecisive and there's not a lot we can do in B two B commerce 114 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:57.920 to kind of put these genies back in the bottle or with the toothpaste back 115 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.519 in the tube, or whatever metaphor you want to use. These things are 116 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.920 just getting worse and we have to deal with them. We were they're building 117 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.600 a pipeline for for B two B tech clients, So that's probably not everybody 118 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.680 in the world, but in two thousand and eight and two thousand and ten 119 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:11.759 as well, when the bubble exploded, and the only way to go about 120 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.399 it, I think when you you think about it from the top of funnel 121 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:18.800 perspective is just to the interest to have more pipeline. If you have the 122 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.519 three X or fix, you need to be working on a five X C 123 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.600 X. We need to speak to more people because no matter what you do, 124 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.480 you have a deal that is a contract stage that gets pulled out because 125 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.240 someone needs to save some money. But I want to come back on something 126 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.360 that you you you mentioned use the term and decision, and I believe that 127 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.679 it's open for suggestion. So I'd like you to define you know, you 128 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.919 know, if you if you're if you're sitting on a Monday morning in a 129 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.919 sales courde with all the sales guy and people say, okay, well they're 130 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:52.879 just and this is if they're not free taking it, they're pushing it to 131 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:58.399 next quarter and made perspective that could mean a lot of faith. So so 132 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.279 how was how dold you define decision? Do you have categories within decision and 133 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:07.799 without it? So it's a it's a really great question and you put your 134 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.639 finger on like really the crux of the research here. So maybe I could 135 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.399 back up for just a little bit and explain. You know, we are 136 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.720 very familiar with this phenomenon. You mentioned it before that kind of that movie 137 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.559 in sales. We see it like every day the customer wants to push the 138 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:31.039 decision they're delaying, or maybe it's the customer who start stops engaging with us 139 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.679 frequently, they kind of stopped responding to our emails, they stopped showing up 140 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:39.080 for the zoom call. They start kind of ghosting us and disengaging, and 141 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.960 and then the forecast slips, and it slips and it slips, and then 142 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:45.600 eventually, like the customer just stops replying to us and we market as closed, 143 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.919 lost no decision. And so the book is really about why does that 144 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:50.600 happen and how do we how do we avoid that? And one of the 145 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.720 things we found is that sales people have been taught for a really long time 146 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:00.639 that when your customer starts to show the sign of hesitation you mentioned one before, 147 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.960 you know the customers saying now is not the right time. It's going 148 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:07.759 to push into the next quarter or next year. Even that what they've been 149 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.120 taught to do, or what they should say, what they've been taught to 150 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:15.639 believe is the only reason that customers not moving forward is because you failed to 151 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.879 beat the status quo. So either the customer believes what they do today is 152 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.480 good enough, or maybe they don't believe your solution is a compelling enough alternative, 153 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.039 or maybe they don't feel the urgency to change right. It's sure this, 154 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.039 you know, Ray, this sounds like a better solution. I agree 155 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.039 what we do today is terrible, but we have a lot of priorities and 156 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.279 this fixing this is not one of our priorities. So it could be any 157 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.000 of those reasons. And so what we tell sales people to do is that 158 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.399 when the customer starts to show those signs of cold feet and hesitation and they 159 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.600 start to disengage, you've got to go and dial up the fomo, right, 160 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:52.879 the fear of missing out. And so the way that sales people have 161 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.360 been taught to do this is as a few different techniques. The first one 162 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.080 is very positive. So I go act to you. Let's say, Ray, 163 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:03.480 you're the customer. I say, right, maybe you don't understand how 164 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.720 awesome our platform is. Let me take you back into the demo environment to 165 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:09.960 show you again, how great did you see how many zeros were on that 166 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.799 r O. I projection it's huge, you know, And I talk up 167 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.919 the good you know, the good story, all the great things that are 168 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.000 going to happen if you move forward. Then when that doesn't compel you, 169 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.879 what I do is I put away the carrot and I break out the stick, 170 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.120 and so that becomes a little bit more the fear uncertainty and doubt. 171 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.519 So Ray, you know these problems they're not going to solve themselves. And 172 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.320 you told me how bad things are right now for your company and you're losing 173 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.000 market share, and did I mention we work with all of your competitors, 174 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:37.120 and boy, they're seeing massive gains and you guys are gonna be left behind. 175 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.159 I hate for that to happen for you. So what I'm trying to 176 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.360 do is great kind of the burning platform that compels you to move forward, 177 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.679 to help you realize that there's a cost from doing nothing. And if those 178 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.480 things don't work, what I do is I usually hand hand out like or 179 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399 dangle a ten percent discount, you know, for the sort of expiring carrot, 180 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:58.759 if you will, or disappearing carrots. So here is a discount, 181 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:03.399 here is an implementation window or delivery window, and if you don't sign up 182 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.080 now, I can't give that to you. Um, you know, it's 183 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:11.639 only good right now. And so those are the techniques that these fomo techniques 184 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.039 that sales people have been taught to use. But what we found was that 185 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.720 for customers who have already stated their intent to move forward, that those approaches 186 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:26.039 actually backfire more often than they work out probability in those situations the customer will 187 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.480 will end up doing nothing, so we actually make it worse, not better. 188 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.879 And it was kind of surprising to us to find that, because again, 189 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.679 these are the techniques that have been handed down from sales leaders to sales 190 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:43.679 managers to salespeople for forever, really for sixty years now. We even talk 191 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.759 about this in the Challenger Sale. We talked about how challengers are really good 192 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.399 at breaking the full of the status quo, breaking the grip that the status 193 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.679 quo has on the customer. Um, they're they're really good at showing the 194 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.000 customer the pain of same, and that it's worse than the pain of change. 195 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.600 You know, you cannot afford to do nothing. That's a hallmark of 196 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.120 being a challenger. But it was so it was surprising to us to see 197 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.039 this technique backfired until we actually dug into the data, and here's what we 198 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.600 found. We found that there's actually two reasons that a deal could end up 199 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:20.879 being lost to no decision. One of them is because of the status quo. 200 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.399 The customer prefers the status quo, or maybe they think the status quo 201 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:26.000 is not great but it's good enough. Right, or I don't believe your 202 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.080 solution is a compelling enough alternative. Any of those reasons. Those are status 203 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.039 quo reasons. But there's an entire second category which is about indecision, which 204 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.879 is different from the status quo. And you mentioned this before, Ray, 205 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.720 But indecision is not that I prefer the status quo. Is that I'm quite 206 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.440 literally unwilling or unable to make a decision on moving forward. Now I'll give 207 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.480 you a little bit more detail here. There are three things that cause customers 208 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.519 to become indecisive. The first one is they don't know what to pick. 209 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.799 So in sales, we love putting options and and different configurations and too much. 210 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.200 We put all this stuff because it feels good, right, It feels 211 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.240 good to tell our customer we could do all this stuff. Look at all 212 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.919 the partner integrations, look at the look at the road map, look at 213 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.440 all the bells and whistles. But coming back to a challenge one more time, 214 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.600 you also have something in there, I think with giving straight choices maximum 215 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.720 to people. Yeah too, I believe, like you know, because too 216 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.399 many people just get confused and they make no decision. Well, because in 217 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.240 a world where everything looks good, that customer worry. What they're worried about 218 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.919 is this going from a conversation and a concept to a proposal that requires deciding 219 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.200 not just what I'm going to buy, but what am I going to take 220 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.679 out of the shopping car, what am I not going to buy? And 221 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.559 those are hard decisions for people when everything looks equally attractive, and so they 222 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.600 get that's called the valuation problem. This is the customer looking at lots of 223 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.320 options and saying, I don't want to make a mistake and pick the wrong 224 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.559 one. The second source of indecision is a lack of information. So this 225 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.799 is where the customer feels like they've not done enough research or enough homework. 226 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.360 They feel like it's the next white paper that they read that will have all 227 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.159 the answers you know, and tell them how to be a smart customer. 228 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.039 And then the third source of indecision is what we call outcome uncertainty. Outcome 229 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:16.720 uncertainty is um about the customers fear that they won't realize the benefits from the 230 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.440 purchase, So they won't realize the r o I, they won't realize the 231 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.879 cost savings, the risk mitigation, whatever you're projecting, and it might not 232 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.120 they're not even blaming you. They're in some ways blaming themselves in their own 233 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.320 company. But it's they're feeling like, I don't actually know if I'm gonna 234 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.919 get We're gonna get what we're paying for here. Now, what's so interesting 235 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:35.799 about that is that you could easily have a customer. Turns out, often 236 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.360 do have customers who say, ray, I the status quo is terrible. 237 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.840 We want to do business with you. We want to move forward with your 238 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.240 solution, but I don't know what configuration to pick. I don't know if 239 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.559 I've done enough research to to really because it's a big purchase, big decision. 240 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.440 I'm going to buy this stuff once in my entire career. I don't 241 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.679 want to make a mistake In number three? Do I have any assurance? 242 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.039 Have you given me any guarantee that we're going to see the returns that you're 243 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.159 projecting or am I gonna be left holding the bag? And so what it 244 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.519 tells us is the big the big story here is that overcoming into our getting 245 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.240 customers to avoid those no decision losses, to avoid the waste land of no 246 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.399 decision, which is a waste of the customer's time, is a waste of 247 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.960 our time and sales. It's less about dialing up the fomo and it's actually 248 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.279 more about dialing down the foe. Move foam is the fear of messing up. 249 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.960 Have I picked the right thing? Have I done enough homework? Do 250 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.879 I have any assurance of success? So we've got to get the customer comfortable 251 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.960 that they've made a great choice, that they're talking to a subject matter expert 252 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.360 as great salesperson who's going to guide them to a great decision. They don't 253 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.360 need to be an expert. We can be the expert for them. And 254 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.519 then lastly, we've given them a safety net. You know, we've we've 255 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:45.919 shown them that we're going to have their back. They're gonna see they're not 256 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.200 gonna look like a fool, they're gonna look like a hero. And you 257 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.720 know, in today's environment, especially in this this current economic environment where right 258 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.919 now, where there's so much scrutiny, let's think about it for a moment. 259 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.960 At the end of the day, the customer doesn't really care so much 260 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.440 about losing a ten percent discount window. What they really care about is losing 261 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.559 their job. That's actually much more important to them, right And so we've 262 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.359 got to deal with that. It doesn't mean that we have to stop beating 263 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.079 the status quote. We have to do that. That has to happen. 264 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.359 It has to happen very early in the sale. If the customer doesn't believe 265 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.480 there's any benefit of moving forward, you're not going to sell anything. But 266 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.440 once they stopped caring about the status quote, then what we have to deal 267 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.519 with is their own indecision to get them to move forward. It makes perfect 268 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:32.640 sense. I mean it particularity depends on the tape of companies you would be. 269 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.240 But let's say, for for us a good uh you know I c 270 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.440 P. We've got a the amount of stage ABC companies. You know, 271 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.279 companies were one round, two rounds of astrolophy investment. And of course we've 272 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.720 got some very big one, big names stuff that you probably use every day 273 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:51.359 and everybody in the world pretty much as every day and varying from a big 274 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:56.680 vendor. You almost have a fair few of these tick. But when you 275 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.759 are paying to a kind of new issue vendor and it's soft, well so 276 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.720 it's it's kind of non tangible. You can't take it. You can try 277 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.960 it. It's not like a box that they can send you and you plug 278 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:08.039 it if you like it, to keep it, you don't like it, 279 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:12.079 you said it that, and you know, listening to you, I'm kind 280 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:17.480 of thinking, God, have we created that fear? Have we created that 281 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.799 fear because we've been promising and on the delivery? Have we created that sort 282 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.079 of fears of perfection? And I guess that's kind of fleading me to my 283 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:27.559 question to you, which is, all right, so we know about the 284 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.039 kind of what to do with the phone, and I like that, I'm 285 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.079 going to use that. I'm going to steal that from and not steal it. 286 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.400 I'm gonna right away go ahead. You mentioned that, I'm just gonna 287 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:42.119 put a little trademark next to it. But what are what are the other 288 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.000 advice that you would give to the to the to the to the top selves 289 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.599 gaze out there? What would be the thing that you would suggest that they 290 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.240 change from a more in a more like day to day perspective, because at 291 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.799 the end of the day, to me, it sounds like you know, 292 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.400 being quite a nest about things, probably potentially being a bit consulted even the 293 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.400 selves process and say, look, we've got old receptions and you're it's you're 294 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.160 gonna get crazy at them, But I've not one what you've done. I 295 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.720 worked with your team and I think you should go for that configuration for you. 296 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.279 That's kind of an example. But what would be the practical advice that 297 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.680 you would give to the the sends people listening to us today. Yeah, 298 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.720 and you're right without you know, it's got to be even the concept of 299 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.759 don't dial up the PHO dial pomo dialed down the FOE move is only of 300 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.839 limited help. I think we've got to do is distill it into a playbook. 301 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.240 So that's what we've tried to do with the Jolt effects. So JOLT 302 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.519 is an acronym, so it stands for four behaviors that together we think comprise 303 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:42.400 a playbook for dealing with customer indecision. So I walk through them quickly and 304 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:47.200 we can go back and discuss. But the first first one is j is 305 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.680 judging the level of indecision. So indecision is one of these things that we 306 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:56.440 actually found in our research, almost nine of opportunities across two and a half 307 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.680 million sales calls almost had customers with media them or high levels of indecision. 308 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.279 There are very few decisive customers. They now every customer thinks they're very decisive, 309 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:08.440 and if you ask them, they would al raise their hand and say, 310 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.519 oh, yes, Ray, I'm a very decisive executive and very but 311 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.240 they're not. Actually, it turns out they get very concerned of this fear 312 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.039 of failure comes to consume them. But how do you get something that can 313 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.160 be kind of personal, maybe even embarrassing? How do you get it on 314 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.519 the table so that you can have a conversation about it? And so the 315 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.920 j is all about what should we be looking for the sources of indecision? 316 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.599 Are there things going on in the company that might amplify this indecision? What 317 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.319 about this individual I'm working with? Are they individually are personally indecisive by nature? 318 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.559 And then we've got to understand again, how do we elicit it? 319 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.000 How do we get it on the table so that we can have a conversation 320 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.200 about it? Because that does a few things for us. One, it 321 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.119 tells us what's the playbook we need to have to get the customer across the 322 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.680 finish line to how do we forecast this opportunity in three? In some cases, 323 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.599 should we disqualify this opportunity? Or is this is this customer too indecisive? 324 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.839 Are they too far gone? Is it a waste of our time? 325 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.480 These are really important questions for the sales person. So that's the j judging 326 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.559 the level of indecision. Now you already talked about the oh a little bit, 327 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.519 which is offering your recommendation. So you know you mentioned one of the 328 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.599 techniques we talk about in the book. Offering lots of options to our customers 329 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.759 is great, especially great above the funnel. You know, in marketing at 330 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.319 the trade show, we love to paint a big picture of what's possible, 331 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.319 but at some point we've got to narrow up the considerations that if if everything 332 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.839 looks equally good, then nothing looks that. You know, what looks best 333 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.920 to the customer doing nothing? And so what we need to do in sales 334 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.920 is chalk the field and kind of narrow up the pitch, if you will, 335 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.920 and go down from a thousand options down to maybe three configurations and then 336 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.559 put our personal recommendation on one of them. Say this is the one Ray 337 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.880 I would go with, given your your use case, given your situation. 338 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:02.039 Other customers like you really get a lot of value here. It's the analogy 339 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.039 I would use Ray is It's like when you go to a restaurant and you 340 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:10.720 sit down and you see twenty entrees on the menu and they all look wonderful, 341 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.720 and you ask the waiter, a waitress, what do you recommend? 342 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.640 And they say, well, right, what are you in the mood to 343 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.799 eat today? Well, that's very unhelpful. What we'd rather do, have 344 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.960 a waiter waitress do is say, right, this is the best dish we 345 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:23.920 This is my favorite. If you're in the mood for something a bit lighter, 346 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.559 I also like this one. But look, everything we make here is 347 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.839 great. You can't make a bad decision like that. Instill some confidence because 348 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.960 what happens there is I shift the blame of a bad choice for me onto 349 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.799 you, because if I don't like it, it's partly your fault, right 350 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.039 um. And that's what best sales people will do. They'll make that that 351 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.119 firm and personal recommendation. The l It is all about limiting the exploration, 352 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.240 so we know customers will always feel like they haven't done enough homework. And 353 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:56.000 the danger there, there's a real danger for salespeople here because when the customers 354 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:02.799 asking for more, more reference calls um, more demos, more information, 355 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:07.200 more white papers, more webinar recordings, I want to read more Gardner Magic 356 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.160 Quadrant Reports, whatever it is, it feels like the customers making progress because 357 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.519 they're engaged in learning. They're engaged, and they're moving towards the finish line, 358 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.119 right, And so it gives us something we can put in the CRM 359 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.039 system. Yes, like I sent them the white paper. Yes, I 360 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.319 set up another demo, I set up another reference call. But the problem 361 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.079 is high performers realize that beyond a certain point, those customers are just going 362 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.880 to engage in analysis paralysis. Right. They're doing research for researcher's sake, 363 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.519 but it's not getting them any closer to the finish line. And so they 364 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:40.039 need to shift the dynamic from you as a customer trying to be an expert, 365 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.519 to you trusting me as your expert. Now there's a lot that goes 366 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.319 into that, and I think of all the skills, I actually think this 367 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.799 one is the hardest one for salespeople because what it requires us to do is 368 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.240 two things. That this is an overused term in sales. But we've got 369 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.759 to be a trusted advisor. So we got to build We've got to bridge 370 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.119 the trust gap that naturally exists between customers and sales people, and we found 371 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.319 specific techniques that sales people used to do that. And the second thing is 372 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.079 we've got to demonstrate to the customer that we are an expert. You know, 373 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.240 in in the reaction, especially in tech today, I think, is 374 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.920 for sales people to show up with you know, we like to say the 375 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.039 clown car of experts, you know, the product people, the engineers, 376 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.119 everybody joins the call, and then the salesperson just kind of backs out of 377 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.799 the way and hands the microphone to their colleagues. But best sales people know 378 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.720 that that's the dangerous thing to do because the customer then stops perceiving you as 379 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.240 an expert. You are just a glorified admin, like your only value is 380 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.559 getting the smart people on the phone who really know the product. So you've 381 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.640 got to develop that expertise and demonstrate it. And then the t is taking 382 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.279 risk off the table. So we know that, you know, in the 383 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.000 final analysis, the customer will get very nervous that they may not get the 384 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:55.039 returns that you are projecting from the purchase. And so how do we show 385 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:59.039 them? What are the things we can do everything from a simple and simple 386 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:04.160 businesses, radio refunds in more complex businesses, using professional services or creative contracts, 387 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.400 structuring, pulling customer success forward into the sales process. What are the 388 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.640 things we can do that give the customer the confidence that they are going to 389 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.480 get what they're paying for, They're going to see the benefits and actually you're 390 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.839 probably gonna overperform. So again they'll look not like a fool, but like 391 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.119 a hero in their organization. So that is what that is. The jolt 392 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.599 effect is those four behaviors, and we like it because it's memorable, but 393 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.119 it also it speaks to what's happening here. Our customers stuck. They're stuck 394 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.839 in their own indecision. We're trying to jolt them toward the decision. Right. 395 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:40.160 It's super interesting. I two plots of nuts, but thinking a lot 396 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.680 about cases. In fact, I was writing when you say, emitting the 397 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:47.200 exploration. So maybe you should bring something up to the table. Maybe I 398 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.720 should ask a question. Its right enough time beautifully which was fantastic. Now 399 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.000 well, but you know it's it's a good question though, because what this 400 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.880 is hard because people on the listening to the show, well we don't want 401 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:02.720 them to assume is they can't anybody to help. I mean the last thing 402 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.119 you want to do in sales is fake it. And if you don't know 403 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.400 the answer to a question, if you're not a deep enough expert, you 404 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.880 need to bring your product person, your engineer, your you know, info 405 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.039 SEC person, whoever it is, you need to bring them to the table. 406 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.279 But there's a specific way that we found high performers doing it. So 407 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:23.559 we collected data from lots of companies in the same company. What we found 408 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.599 was an average performer, So use that an example of a tech company that 409 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.559 participated in the research. Average performers would bring all of these experts and then 410 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.200 they would say something like, I know you had a question about the product. 411 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.319 Ray is our head of product. Ray, take it away, and 412 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.599 and they just hand over the call to to the product person. And the 413 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.720 product person would because they want to help, they would take the entire conversation. 414 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.200 They would just it was almost like the sales person wasn't there and they 415 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.079 didn't jump into the very end saying, oh, so should we set up 416 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.079 the next call? Like what's the next step? And you know, but 417 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:56.200 again, what that's telling the customers that you are no more than a glorified 418 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.640 n C or an admin here. You're your value is just that you got 419 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.640 Ray the head of product on the call. But that's also a customer who 420 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:10.319 perceives the salesperson as not being much smarter than they are about this big decision. 421 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.079 And so that's a customer who will want to do their own research to 422 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.640 instill to build up their own confidence. What high performers it, it didn't 423 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.480 mean they never asked for help, but what they would do is they would 424 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.240 sit down with you Ray head of product, in advance. They would carefully 425 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.480 orchestrate the call, and I would have said something like, Ray, I've 426 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.920 got the customer has this really specific question. Can we just role play a 427 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:32.200 little bit of what your answer being. Can you try to keep it to 428 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.920 no more than like seven minutes? And what I'd like to do is then 429 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.039 tell the customer you have to jump to another call so that you can leave, 430 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.519 and then they come back to me, because I don't want them going 431 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.079 to you. I want them coming to me. If they don't see me 432 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.839 as an expert, then it damages my credibility in the eyes of the customer. 433 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:49.880 So again, it's the way that you do it. It's not whether 434 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.559 or not you should use those experts. By the way. As the side 435 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.680 point, we also found that high performers in the same companies were much more 436 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.720 likely to do their own demos rather than handing it off to so luans engineer. 437 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.519 Yeah, there is a lot of that. There is a lot of 438 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.880 I don't know if it's kind of the automation of the sales process trying to 439 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.799 look like sales face or service now and you know, we'll have a step 440 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.079 and we go the next step, the next step, and you don't want 441 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:17.079 a demo or you're gonna get to demo anyway because the next step of the 442 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.160 step in the process when sometimes we should actually speak to their clients and and 443 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.720 and maybe you know, do it do it in another way. Um So 444 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.599 I think I think for the exploration it's kind of really interesting because you also 445 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:33.039 have multi personal cell cycles and as the selles person, of course you shouldn't 446 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:38.759 be expected to to to end all the complete U technical conversation. You may 447 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.079 have to bring people a bit better at that. But we've seen the polar 448 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.960 opposite also of sales people would just sit back, open the laptop, put 449 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.160 the presentation, the see the system engineer could do the presentation and at the 450 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:52.960 end its okay, do you like it? You want something and it's like 451 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.039 wow, you know the first meeting, or you don't even speak, you 452 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.720 don't like you even pick up the slaves you will present. You just go 453 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.960 through the same motion all the time. There's there's literally falsig done. I 454 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:07.799 think that's not even an average performing here. We're probably at the bottom of 455 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:14.480 the barroom to the judging the level of indecision. That could be open touring 456 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.319 the partition and you would have the very cynical sales right that would say, 457 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.119 now you know it's not moving. You know, I'm always in a bad 458 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.880 mood, the lord wolf maybe you know, kind of not not too much, 459 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.400 so they would they would use that, and then you would have the 460 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:33.319 very enthusiastic sales guy working their tails and just saying, none of us. 461 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.279 So how do you judge that? Like, is there is there a method 462 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:42.039 to judge because it's it's quite complex in a way, and often what you 463 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.960 are saying what I guess from my perspective at scale with a team of ten 464 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000 people, would you have the same level, would you have the same skokouts? 465 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.599 Yeah, so a great question. I think that again, this one 466 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.880 is a This is a tricky one too, because these are not things that 467 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.480 customers are comfortable talking about. You know, they're very unlikely to admit that 468 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:04.559 you know, they have they have trouble, like hey, right, when 469 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.119 I go to a restaurant with lots of I leave hungary because I don't know 470 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.279 what to order it, Or Friday night, I don't know what movie to 471 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.000 watch with my family, Like I don't. I'm very bad at making decisions. 472 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.359 Customers don't say these things, but we know that they struggle with in 473 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.680 decision. They struggle with this fear of failure. So how do we get 474 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:22.480 it on the table um? We found that there's there are two techniques. 475 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.480 One of them is is kind of obvious. Here's here's the metaphor ideas, 476 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.160 right, is that I might think of it like, um, you as 477 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.759 a salesperson, are a a surface ship, like I think of a warship 478 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.480 on the surface of the ocean, and you know there's a submarine down there. 479 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.480 The submarine is the customer and decision. And there's two ways to find 480 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.759 that submarine. The first one is just through listening. This is called passive 481 00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:49.720 sonar, right, So we just listened for the submarine making noise. So 482 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:56.400 that's obviously about what are the things in a sales conversation that become indicators of 483 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.720 indecision that we can then just tune our listening were right, really active listening 484 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.599 techniques. But if the submarine is very silent, and oftentimes it will be 485 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:11.079 hard to discern is this customer indecisive or not? What what service ships do 486 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.519 is they they engage in active center. So they send out a ping literally 487 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.519 a ping, and and they listen for the echo back from the object and 488 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.119 that tells them there is a submarine down here because I got the reflection. 489 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.359 Now, if what we're trying to do is get a reflection back, that 490 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:30.599 is different in sales. That technique is different from uh diagnosis, a diagnostic 491 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.200 question, you know what's keeping you up at night? What are you trying 492 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.160 to accomplish? Asking the customer are you indecisive? Do you struggle with the 493 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.759 decision? Probably not a good technique. It's also different from a customer verifier. 494 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.640 By the way, diagnostic questions are very important in sales. We know 495 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.599 that customer verifiers are also very important, which are for example, NI saying 496 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.359 to you, ray, are we ready to send this on too legal for 497 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.480 review? Are we ready to get finance and procurements involved in work through the 498 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.799 budgeting process. That that tells us that the customers moving along with us. 499 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.920 Our sales process is mapping to their buying process, and that's a very important 500 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.000 technique. The technique we want to use here, though, is much more 501 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.519 like that ping for a submarine and listening for the echo back. So what 502 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.039 does that sound like? Well, what we found in the analysis of the 503 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.680 two and half million calls is high performers would proactively articulate what they think is 504 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.880 bothering the customer, and they do it in a specific way to make it 505 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.839 seem like it's okay. So Ray, you know, I'm gauging from your 506 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:31.000 reaction there that maybe you're a little bit concerned about are your employees actually going 507 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.160 to use the platform or or are you buying too much? You don't nobody 508 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:38.359 can afford, especially in this environment, for software to go unused. And 509 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.000 just just to let you know, a lot of our customers worry about the 510 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.440 same thing. So I don't know if that's true for you, but if 511 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:45.799 it is, I'd love to get that on the table so we can talk 512 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.599 about it and I can tell you how or what our approach is and how 513 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.720 it's different here to make sure that people get value, make sure they use 514 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.039 the platform, and that you actually see the benefits. So what happens in 515 00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:00.200 that moment is I've articulated a fear that you think you're you're going to buy 516 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.839 software or platform that nobody uses, and that what I'm looking for is for 517 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.880 you to articulate back. Yeah, that actually that is a big concern right 518 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.119 now, especially because there's so much scrutiny on every single purchase, Like I 519 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:15.279 cannot buy a million dollars of software and have nobody use it like that I'll 520 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.440 lose my job, you know, or for the customer to say no, 521 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.759 that that's actually where that's not our concern. Our concern is actually the integration 522 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.079 with this other part of our tech stack. I'm not sure you guys have 523 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.559 never done that before. And what if it goes sideways, because if that 524 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.960 doesn't work, this whole thing is so it gets it on the table, 525 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.200 so now we can have a conversation about it. It sounds common sense that, 526 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.400 as you mentioned it, it's really about almost big, very transparent about 527 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.640 what could be the broadcast. I mean, I'll remember one of my one 528 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.680 of my initial stars conversation is slightly different than that what we were discussing about, 529 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.599 but I don't know. For some reason, it's coming into the back 530 00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.240 of my mind. I was speaking to a prospect and the solution that we 531 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:58.720 are pushing was a challenge of a very very big vendoll okay, and technically 532 00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:01.279 on paper we beat that were quicker, fasto better, you know, all 533 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:05.559 the thing that you don't speak to the prospect about. But the solution is 534 00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:09.840 better. The technical people like it. You get into our fpiece because you've 535 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.639 got a good stuff. You've got a very good product. It's also a 536 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.360 very big name of a company. But let's say that's what they are doing 537 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:21.320 in that specific instance is not their core business. That's what not what they 538 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.320 are known for. They just happened to also a very good solution for that 539 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.440 part of the business. And and literally I was I was thinking with a 540 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.760 prospect as to why, and I was doing exactly and it was like, 541 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:34.400 it could be that that you are concerned about, all your teams are concerned 542 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.800 about. So what I was doing with that guy was more about it's not 543 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.920 you, but it could be the people around you, which I think is 544 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.400 also kind of helping because people may say, you know what may see if 545 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.000 is that comfortable with that? Actually they may not be themselves, but they 546 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.079 just they don't want to tell you that they're not because you have a bit 547 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:57.039 of a relationship with them. So using the people around the probably to ten 548 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.039 fifty years of conversation, I think that gay speaking too good. Fed up 549 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:04.559 with me and this is very simple. I've got to choice. He's not 550 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.239 buy the Ferrari. And if the Ferrari breakdown, my wife would never tell 551 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.639 me off because if I would have got the b m W the you would 552 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.000 have run down before. So what I'm doing, I'm buying an insurance here 553 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.519 my problem. I don't want to be exposed. And when did I tell 554 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.480 you us? Oh god, so we had no chance here? Yeah, 555 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:24.239 I think you knew that you had no chance, but they weren't obtaining the 556 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:29.159 conversation and it kind of feel Obviously, it's a bit frustrating when you get 557 00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:30.920 to that point, but you also feel is good because you can have cut 558 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.199 the chase in a way. That's why. What would be more frustrating is 559 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.480 that you spend another six months thinking you have a chance, when when actually 560 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:42.719 you You've saved yourself all that time, so you're right. In the moment, 561 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.639 it's very painful, but in retrospect it's like, boy, I'm so 562 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.960 glad I didn't waste my time with that opportunity. You mentioned something, Ray, 563 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.360 that I think is another powerful technique when we talked about this limiting the 564 00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:00.199 exploration or even judging in decision. This type the specific thing we found be 565 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.719 quite useful, and that is, look at what we're looking for signs of 566 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:09.559 implicit non acceptance in the way customers respond so um. For instance, if 567 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:14.079 you raise an objection and I address that objection, then I said, Ray, 568 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:16.760 how did how did I do? Did I address your concern? And 569 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.320 what we found is this is really interesting. There's actually a big difference between 570 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.920 the customers saying yes and the customers saying I guess so yeah sort of. 571 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.679 Um. Now, if you're an average salesperson, those two things are identical 572 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:31.679 and you just keep pitching, right, you keep going with your sales conversation. 573 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.840 What high performers would do is they would stop the conversation. They would 574 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.159 say, you know, Ray, I don't want to read too much into 575 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.199 this, but based on your response, maybe I didn't resolve your question. 576 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:44.840 Perhaps there's another concern that you're worried about, and that's okay because there's other 577 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:47.559 customers like you. They get pretty concerned about this stuff too, So I'd 578 00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.039 love to have a conversation. And again, maybe maybe you're fine, but 579 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.480 let's let's have a conversation about it. Um. The other thing we found, 580 00:36:54.519 --> 00:37:00.639 and you mentioned this before too, is they would proactively suggest object sins 581 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.440 that the customer hadn't even articulated, so, you know, answering one question, 582 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.519 but they're saying, you know, other customers like you, they actually 583 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.960 also worry about this. I don't know if that's true for you, but 584 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.679 I thought maybe let's get it on the table so we can talk about it. 585 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.760 And that does a couple of things. Um. It builds a lot 586 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.440 of trust. Of course, um, you're not trying to hide the dirty 587 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:21.480 laundry, You're getting it all on the table. But also it teaches your 588 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:25.360 customer, Ah, this person has been there before, they've done they've sold 589 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:29.280 this solution to other customers like me. They know what's going on in my 590 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.960 head, they know what all the pitfalls, and I feel like I'm working 591 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:37.199 with a a you know, not just an advisor, but a trusted advisor 592 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:39.000 who is going to lead me to the right decision. Yeah, and it's 593 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:44.679 kind of leading me to the the you know, offering recommendation, which is 594 00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:49.719 the Oh that's relatively for me at least, it's relatively straightful out of me 595 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:53.199 in doing what I've been doing for a lot of time. I kind of 596 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:57.920 you know, it's easy when you've got a lot of experience, is probably 597 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.119 much more difficult when you are spreamnthing and you, uh, what made you 598 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.960 advited that to give to sells people around that? Because again, should you 599 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:08.199 go to your sells director or your customer success team involved them early and say, 600 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:10.400 look, this is this is what the prospect looks like, this is 601 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.239 what we've been discussing, this is what the challenges I believe they are facing. 602 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:17.079 I'm trying to package something. I would like to come up with one 603 00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.880 or two recommendation for them. Yeah, so I think you're right. It 604 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.400 for experience sales people, they just they kind of do this in their sleep, 605 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.920 like they know this, customers they should buy this, that, customers 606 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.760 they should buy that, and they know what the different options are and they 607 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:35.480 can kind of do it naturally and that comes from experience for a newer salesperson 608 00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.599 who maybe doesn't have that experience. This is where the organization can be quite 609 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:44.199 um supportive. Right. So, UM, if we know in our company 610 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.320 that certain I c P s are certain use cases, that there are specific 611 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.119 customer types, there's a specific configuration that is best for those different customers, 612 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.599 and we can configure that within a range of options. So it's not just 613 00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.360 one choice or one size fits all, but you could do this one or 614 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:01.280 here's a heavy or one in a slightly lighter one. Um, and we 615 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:05.559 give people a sense of options, not everything, but maybe three options, 616 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:07.960 and we steer them to the one in the middle. Um. That's something 617 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:14.519 that product can do that that the sales leadership team can build and then train 618 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.840 new sales people to get good at using so that doesn't require them to develop 619 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:22.679 ten years of experience so they can make those recommendations. It's also something and 620 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.119 we talked about this a lot, that you know, we as tenured sales 621 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:30.639 people can be a resource to those newer sales people and sharing that perspective a 622 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:36.960 lot of what helps our newer and career and less tenured sales people move down 623 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.800 the learning curve. More quickly is their ability to tap into the knowledge of 624 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.920 all the more experienced sales people on the team. So but again it's something 625 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.519 we can invest in at the organizational level. So that oh is, yes, 626 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.119 it's an individual skill, but it's also kind of an organizational capability. 627 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:58.320 Have you documented those recommendations and then train people around them and then adapted them 628 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:02.480 as the product evolves and as needs and requirements about in the marketplace? Yeah, 629 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:05.880 and and the finally, I just I just want to dig into a 630 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.079 little bit each of them because I find the concept by interesting. Of course, 631 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:12.760 there's a whole book around it to two point two million cores that they 632 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.960 listened to. So taking the risk of the table, So so what that 633 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.960 means? That mean that you is kind of a business model. It's a 634 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.480 couple of things. One is, I was the thing about taking the risk 635 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.440 of the table? Raise it. You know, it often comes up very 636 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:28.679 late, so it ends up being the really, like I I've said, 637 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.679 the oftentimes, you know, the space between the customer's pen and the contract 638 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:37.440 is filled with outcome uncertainty. Am I really going to get the benefits that 639 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:40.480 I've been promised? And especially right now, it's it's so much easier to 640 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:45.000 delay the decision and say let's do let's talk again in twenty four months. 641 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.760 Now is not the right time because people are worried about looking bad, but 642 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:52.000 they're worried about losing their jobs, you know, in spending a lot of 643 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:55.400 their companies money on a solution that doesn't work out. So we found a 644 00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.480 range of techniques. But here's what I would say is and though it ends 645 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.639 up coming up late, um, the seeds of outcome uncertainty often planted earlier 646 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:10.719 in the sale. And the way this happens is by salespeople creating um uh 647 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:16.039 if you will, oversetting expectations and increasing the risk the customer perceives that they're 648 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:20.000 never going to see the this r O I, they're never going to see 649 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.239 this benefit. So we've got to be really careful. Like yes, on 650 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.039 the website, we love those reference stories and those case studies and success stories 651 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.400 about like the customer who got the thousand x r O I like that looks 652 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.599 really cool, but let's not use that as the basis for the business case. 653 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:36.119 Let's tell the customer, you know what, I want to build the 654 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.679 business case around this expectation. I'm also confident we're going to overperform. But 655 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:44.400 what I don't want to do is set the bar so high that it puts 656 00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:49.000 a lot of pressure on you to achieve outcomes that we need to have everything 657 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.960 go right in order to achieve trust me like and so so. Best sales 658 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.840 people are good at saying those expectations properly and then when it comes down to 659 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.760 that outcome, uncertainty and and de risking the sale. There's lots of techniques 660 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.320 we saw so one obviously in more transactional sales, pro raded refunds at opt 661 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:07.400 out clauses, things like that. In more complex B two B sales, 662 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.840 we don't tend to see that. But here's what we do see we do 663 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.440 we see sales people using creative contract structuring. We see them using professional services. 664 00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.039 Here's one example a company who participated in the research of sas company. 665 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.639 Their best sales people sell like ten times as much professional services with every deal. 666 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.760 Now what's interesting about it is not that they just sell more professional services. 667 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:35.719 It's the way they position this this professional services. What they will do 668 00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.039 in the calls to say, you know, Ray, I, I know 669 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.440 you have a little bit of concern, you want to do this yourself. 670 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:43.039 And that's one of the great things about our platform. You can roll it 671 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.639 out yourself. We've got tons of videos, lots of enablement support. We've 672 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.119 got your back. You can do this on your own. However, I 673 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.320 don't want to see any slippage here, so I'd like to do is add 674 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:58.320 a bundle of like a hundred or two hundred professional services hours. That way, 675 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.159 if anything goes wrong, we've got the A team here and they can 676 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:04.880 swarm the problem get you back on track. So they positioned as an insurance 677 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.199 policy. Now they didn't give it away for free, they sold it, 678 00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:09.719 but they used as an insurance policy for the customer, and the customer saying 679 00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:13.559 you know what, I like that idea because if we don't use the hours 680 00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.679 or roll them into the renewal, but then I at least know somebody's got 681 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.280 my back. It's a safety net kind of option I think for that. 682 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.239 Part of what I mean obviously, taking risk of the table, as you 683 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:27.360 mention is in complexity is much more than just a customer review. But one 684 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.320 thing that I was thinking, is you're speaking, is that there is this 685 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.280 platform like Clutch and Heat to reviews as well. Well. You can have 686 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.960 and I think it's it's kind of funny because if I'm buying something right and 687 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.440 I want to pay something from you, Matt, the reference that I would 688 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.519 ask is not to say, Hey, Matt, can I speak to your 689 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.239 happiest customer base, because I know nothing from that guy or that lady, 690 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:50.000 and they're just gonna tell me how great you are. I don't know how 691 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.840 much you want to die in them and all that sort of great stuff. 692 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.000 What I would want to say, hey, Matt, could you put me 693 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.159 in front of the customer of yours for which you fade so we can discuss 694 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.280 about how you are an organization when you fail and how you managed to get 695 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:04.920 it back on track, because I want to know when you're not at the 696 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:12.519 top of your phone how you are. And people struggle like that references, 697 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:15.760 and for us, we kind of make it almost automatic when someone get to 698 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:17.000 the reference. So, okay, I'm going to give you a client that 699 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:22.480 we're extremely unhappy, but then we managed to change things because we're not perfect, 700 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:24.400 but we work connest, sleep right, and sometings we have a bad 701 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:28.360 quarter and we've got to pick it up, but we try not to kind 702 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:30.039 of get that done into the g two reviews, so when people are reading 703 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.639 them, you know our three stargical review is actually quite a good review. 704 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.559 Yeah, but you know what you do. You're gonna go on amazone you 705 00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.960 want to buy I don't know a mouse trap. I'm supposed that you're not 706 00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:45.480 an expert of mouse trap, Matt, but if you want to go and 707 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.800 buy your mouse trap, you're probably gonna look at Okay, what are the 708 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:54.559 reviews? You never read the top one because you want to know what's wrong 709 00:44:54.599 --> 00:45:00.760 with that? And I think you know that there is a real it's actually 710 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:04.760 important to do the strategy where you can get your clients to openly speak about 711 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.159 what's right, what's strong, and being very honest about these things and almost 712 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.760 creating a platform. And I was wondering, when you're speaking about this, 713 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.039 could you create almost like a community of customers will face issues and then we 714 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.079 can speak about them. But why in the open, Because really what you're 715 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:23.239 talking about here and all those things is it's really about being honest with yourself, 716 00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:28.360 the seals process, the prospect, not trying to oppromise on the deliver 717 00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.519 and not trying to keep each other, which is a big thing in side 718 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:36.119 and it's difficult, particularly for the newly sure, the less experiences people. 719 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.519 We tend to want to the opportunity, and sometimes it's pretty bitter less less 720 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:44.480 good because you'll never make a decision. So you know, it's it's really 721 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.119 I love the idea, you know, it reminds me. We talked about 722 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.639 this a little bit earlier. But the reality I think for salespeople is they've 723 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:55.280 got to realize that they're starting actually before they even say hello to the customer 724 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.960 in a negative place. Because customers feel like they've been burned in the past 725 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.199 us they've been oversold. There's an information asymmetry between themselves and the salesperson, 726 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:07.360 and sometimes that has not worked out well for the customer. Again because the 727 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:13.239 salesperson only had them talk to the happiest reference clients is current clients only you 728 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.039 know, engineered the demo so it works perfectly, right. They don't show 729 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.920 the things that don't work. They don't talk about the capabilities that are not 730 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:21.639 ready for prime time. They certainly don't put you on the phone with customers 731 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.360 who who you had failures with, right, Um, that's just not what 732 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:28.760 we do in sales. We make it all look perfect, and so customers 733 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:30.840 come into the sales conversation believing that, and so there are specific moments. 734 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.159 One of them, I love that idea of I want to have you talk 735 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:37.239 to somebody where it actually didn't go very well, but but we got it 736 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.519 back on track. But I'm gonna put you in touch with them because I 737 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:44.360 want you to understand what kind of organization we are, and we don't accept 738 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.119 failure with our customers. We lean in hard and we get things back on 739 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:50.639 track, and we you know, even if it were, we're not perfect. 740 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:52.880 I think to your point, there's other moments too, like when the 741 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:57.119 customers saying, hey, you know, I want this, and I want 742 00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.599 that and I want this other thing, saying you know what, I'd love 743 00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:01.519 to sell you that, but I actually don't think it's it's good for your 744 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.280 use case. I don't think you need the premium version. I think a 745 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.280 basic version of our product would be fine. I don't think you need a 746 00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:12.039 thousand seat licenses. Let's actually start with tense licenses. I know it's I'd 747 00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:15.199 love to sell you the million dollar deal, but let's start with the tense 748 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.440 licenses. We can expand from there, but I know that way we'll get 749 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:22.800 some victories and we'll show some success, will create a team of people who 750 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:24.639 really love the platform, and then they'll go tell everyone else and then you 751 00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:28.239 look like a hero. If you buy a thousand right now, then there's 752 00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:30.719 gonna be a lot of pressure on you to get everyone using it immediately, 753 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:35.480 and that's not usually what we see. Like those moments, even even this 754 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.639 is kind of extreme. We didn't find a lot of examples of this, 755 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.760 but even moments early on in the sale where you're talking to the customer about 756 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.880 you know, what they're looking for and why they reach out to you, 757 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.119 saying, you know, based on what you're looking for, Actually, that's 758 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:47.480 not We're not the best people in the market for that. We'd love to 759 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.480 do business with you, we think we can really help you, but actually 760 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.199 there's some other companies who really specialize in what you're looking for um and I 761 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:58.519 would look there. Those are moments that really build that trust, and it 762 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.159 teaches the customer in that moment, you are not here to oversell me. 763 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.719 You're here to get me to a good decision. And whether that decision is 764 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.480 buy from you, don't buy from you, you're buy lesson I think I 765 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:13.719 need to buy whatever it is you your only motivations and sales persons to get 766 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:15.800 me as a customer to the best decision for me and for my organization. 767 00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:19.880 Last week I was in the US and I was speaking to my own videas 768 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.920 team, so people who are at the top of the top of the funnel, 769 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:25.679 and I sat down with them and said, look, as you've got 770 00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:30.000 to stop trying to call people and book meeting with them. You know, 771 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.119 it's instincts of meeting. When you call, you stink of meeting, the 772 00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:36.519 prospect that they don't want to give you time. That's that's the most expensive 773 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.960 currency they've got. What I want you to do from now on is to 774 00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:43.960 stop trying to get meetings. I want you to focus on every fantastic conversation. 775 00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:46.840 I want you to feel good because you do something right. You want 776 00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:51.199 to help them, We genuinely want to do something. We have a good 777 00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.119 conversation, you focus on the process versus the results. Yeah, and you 778 00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:58.440 may take six months to come because they still needed for a companying event to 779 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.079 happen. But trust me, if you have a good conversation, We've met 780 00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:05.519 today much thinking of the phone, thinking God, I wish my team could 781 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.519 prospect people like that because it was kind of cool. And then you cannot 782 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.159 keep keep keeping touch with you. You may send him like a few things 783 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.360 like maybe a podcast with with my Dia or something like that and say, 784 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:17.360 hey, listen to that. So it was cool and made me think about 785 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:21.400 you. Maybe in six months they'll pick up the phone and montor re engage 786 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.639 with you. When they do that, that engagement is solid. The closing 787 00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:28.159 right on those things is strong. Okay. So that's kind of leading me 788 00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:30.280 to my last question because I appreciately we get to the end of the show 789 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:35.360 here. Um, would you have any advice for for those people who are 790 00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:38.679 the top of the funnel, so the SdeA, how can they what could 791 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.599 be the contribution in the jority effects. Yeah, so it's a great question. 792 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:45.760 I would, Um, I just play back what you said. I 793 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:49.719 think focusing less on the outcome getting a meeting or getting a visit and more 794 00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.599 on having great conversations. That's job one, and if we can and if 795 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.920 we can make it our goal not to schedule a visit, but rather to 796 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.840 deliver value to the customer and have a good conversation, the visits will follow, 797 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.599 right. I think Also what I would say, is there is recognized 798 00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:08.519 that those signs of indecision can be surfaced very very early, even in the 799 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.519 first attempt to schedule time with them and to engage them at the top of 800 00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.639 the funnel um And so there's a lot of techniques again we talk about around 801 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:22.320 the jay, the judging the indecision that through active listening, through those kings 802 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.280 and echoes that we can use to do a few really important things early on. 803 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.880 Surface. Is this an opportunity that I even want to schedule of, 804 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:31.400 you know, visit with Like I might hit my number, but I'm going 805 00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:35.239 to send an a E or a salesperson too on a wild goose chase. 806 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:37.480 They're gonna be chasing this garbage truck forever. There are things I can figure 807 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.440 out early on that tell me whether this is worth engaging with or pursuing. 808 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.760 Um. Also, there are things I can do early on too, again 809 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:52.320 build that trust and build that credibility that my goal as an str is not 810 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:54.519 to get a meeting. My goal is to get you the information you need 811 00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:59.239 to to be a savvy business person and make the right decision for your company, 812 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:01.159 even if the decision is not doing business with us, maybe buying from 813 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:06.559 our competitor or just doing nothing right. And so I like talking to executives 814 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.960 like you because I find that they don't know a lot about these opportunities, 815 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:14.000 about this technology, and I'd love to educate and provide some value. But 816 00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.480 I'm also very transparent around what we can and can't do, what this technology 817 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:20.320 can and can't do, and in places where we are not the best fit 818 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.239 for you, I will steer you in a different direction. So, you 819 00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.519 know, we love to have some time to talk to you about that. 820 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:29.840 Like that's a that's a different that feels less like a sales conversation and more 821 00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:32.159 like I've actually got an advisor. Here is a sort of an outside consultant 822 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:35.639 coming in to help me make a good choice for me and for my team, 823 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.400 you know, And it makes you feel good. It does something down 824 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:42.760 the sort of a prospect when you know it's the the right thing to do. 825 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:46.599 Okay, you may be very very many hungry, but you will never 826 00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:50.440 be able to sender that person again. That's right, and that's that's that's 827 00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.039 that's the thing. But but I want to thank you for two things. 828 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.480 First of all the time today and all your insights, super valuable. Love, 829 00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:00.199 to thank you for the second thing is the contribution to all this as 830 00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.000 professional because it's not just a challenge ourselves, we forget the challenge our customer 831 00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.079 and all the other things that you've done. So thank you so much. 832 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.880 And and the fact you're coming with actually a bit more of a scientific approach 833 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:14.840 versus just hey, you know what, I'm only your now, I've got 834 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.679 a golden rolex and this is the way I used to do it right stuff. 835 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.480 I think that that that's massive for me. So I want to thank 836 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.920 you for your contribution to our world of selling. Uh And I think you 837 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:30.039 really all the things that you have come up with with with your court and 838 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.599 with your research is it's really about true values, the true values of selling, 839 00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:38.159 which is kind of demystifying the bad guy that you know, someone we 840 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:42.960 can just speak and stuff like that to actually someone who the most successful one 841 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.280 ap honest to the point and don't try to be tricky. So so thank 842 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:49.320 you for that now. And I'm pretty sure I know what the answer of 843 00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.159 that question is. But if I want everybody that has listened to his podcast 844 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.199 to follow up by reading your new book, what is the best place to 845 00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:59.719 buy your book? Buy lots of places online, but if you're interested in 846 00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:01.840 learning more about the research, and there's also some free tools as well as 847 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:07.239 some enablement resources to help drive some of these jolt skills within a sales team. 848 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:10.480 And if you're an individual sales free person developing those by yourself, I'll 849 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:15.280 go to jolt effect dot com and there's everything you want to know about the 850 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:19.119 book and the research and how to continue that learning journey is all all on 851 00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.599 there. So well, thanks Agatting for your time today. May well, 852 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:23.480 thank you great pleasure on the show.