139: The JOLT Effect: Helping High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision

November 03, 2022 00:53:24
139: The JOLT Effect: Helping High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision
B2B Revenue Acceleration
139: The JOLT Effect: Helping High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision

Nov 03 2022 | 00:53:24

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Show Notes

There’s only one thing that is worse for salespeople than hearing 'no', and it’s 'I need to think about it’.

Customer indecision is not only frustrating to deal with, particularly when a salesperson has gone through the entire process of pitching only to end up with no certain answer. 

This hurdle is all too common; in fact, research shows that 40 to 60% of sales pipeline is lost to no decision. What is less common, however, is the knowledge of how to overcome it successfully. 

In this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host Aurelien Mottier (Co-Founder and CEO, Operatix) sits down with author Matt Dixon to discus s his new co-authored book, The Jolt Effect.

Packed with the latest research in customer indecision, practical guidance and myth-busting analysis, The Jolt Effect offers a new approach to tackle the dreaded ‘I need to think about it’.

Aurelien and Matt discuss the concept of the book, as well as why addressing a customer’s fear of failure is so important and some of the most psychological insights that have come out of their research.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:06.160 You weren't listening to Be to Be Revenue Acceleration a podcast dedicated to helping software 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.320 executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:15.240 get into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your 4 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:22.199 entire go to market your organization by operationalizing you almost valuable asset your customer interactions, 5 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:28.079 transform your organization into a revenue machine or unlocking reality and helping your people 6 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:33.320 reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot io. Hi are 7 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.560 you welcome to be to Be a Revenue Acceleration? My name is aham with 8 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.920 you and I'm here today with Matt Dixon Coth of The Challenge Yourselves and the 9 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:44.479 George Effect. How are you today, Matt, Hey, Ray, how 10 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:47.240 are you doing? You're doing well. Yeah, as I was saying to 11 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.960 you in the preparation of this podcast, I'm very very excited to the conversation 12 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.280 with you. I've been a big, big, big, big fun of 13 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.359 the Challenge Yourselves and now you're coming with a new book, The Jogy Effect, 14 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:00.320 which is which is really what we want to discuss to day. And 15 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.159 in the Joint Effect, we speak about helping high performers of outcome of outcome, 16 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:10.120 sorry, customer indecision. Okay, your latest book is is designed to 17 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.879 be a playbook for sales people. We want to close the gap between customer 18 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.519 intent and action. Yeah, and and in ton of course it will This 19 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.879 would help them to close more cells. Can you please explain the concept behind 20 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.000 the book, but also touched maybe on the way you've been writing order this 21 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.280 book, because I think there is a ton of data, a ton of 22 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:30.959 results that goes into the writing. So I'd like you to give us a 23 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.079 little bit of a background around all that and why did your effect? Yeah, 24 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:37.560 sure, I'm happy to do it right. Um, So maybe just 25 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.439 to give a little bit of background on the research, because I think that's 26 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.680 part of the story. Actually, I think most of your listeners will remember 27 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:49.840 the dark days of March when you know, the pandemic, we're all in 28 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.159 lockdown, and as we all know, something really interesting happened in the world 29 00:01:53.159 --> 00:02:00.640 of sales right around that time, which is that sales flipped to virtual overnight 30 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:05.159 suddenly. You know. We yes, we always did some zoom meeting, 31 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:07.599 some teams meetings, you know, things like that during our sales, our 32 00:02:07.639 --> 00:02:15.240 sales process, but suddenly activity of sales interactions were happening virtually, and so 33 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.039 we decided that presented a golden opportunity for us, as we're sales researchers, 34 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.080 and so we decided to partner with several dozen companies across industry. We collected 35 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.400 two and a half million recorded sales calls um and then we used a machine 36 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.319 learning platform to study those so's we think it's the biggest study of actual sales 37 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.680 conversations that has ever been done. And it's something that you know, you 38 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.479 mentioned the Challenger sale before, but you know this technology Challenger Sale came out 39 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:46.039 in this technology didn't really exist back then, and so so much has changed, 40 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.919 uh in terms of machine learning and GPU processing and these kinds of things 41 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:55.000 that allow us to study big data sets like that. Now. The specific 42 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.319 question we were looking because there's a big data set, so we could ask 43 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.039 lots of questions and look for many things, but the specific thing we were 44 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:09.599 looking for was to try to understand what is it that causes a customer after 45 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:15.639 they've gone through an entire sales process with a salesperson. What is it that 46 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:20.039 would cause a customer to um end up in no decision, you know, 47 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:24.039 to go radio silent, to ghost the salesperson, to disengage, and you 48 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:29.080 know this happens a lot to salespeople. We found that anywhere between forty and 49 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:36.080 six of the average salesperson's total um pipeline will be lost to no decision. 50 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.080 So these are customers again who eat up valuable time from us. They spend 51 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:44.039 a lot of their own valuable time that of their organization, our team, 52 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.319 all the subject matter experts we bring to calls things like that. They'll engage 53 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:52.960 a proof in proof of concept or kind of pilot trials and end up doing 54 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.479 nothing. And so the question we were trying to get after, and this 55 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:58.360 is a trend we as we'll talk about we think is getting worse over time. 56 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.879 And so we looked at for the answer to that question, why is 57 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.599 it that a customer would end up doing nothing? And then I think, 58 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:10.240 more importantly to to the playbook point you made before, Ray, what is 59 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.960 it that the best sales people do differently? How do they avoid this kind 60 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.959 of outcome? So they get their customer from intent to action from saying I 61 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:23.920 want this too, I actually bought this, And and that's really where the 62 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.360 kind of interesting stuff came out in the research makes perfect sense. It's very 63 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:30.279 interesting. At two point two million chores, that's that's a fair few. 64 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:38.079 Do you think the data because if it was pus mush twenties, do you 65 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.920 think the data is even more relevant because it was also some sort of it 66 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.720 was a pandemic. I don't have the challenge yourselves in the change ad. 67 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.839 At the beginning of your guys are speaking about what makes the best sellers get 68 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:53.759 into a dum tell. Maybe you know, lots of people are mentioning the 69 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.560 big recission at the moment. So do you think all that data does make 70 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.560 even more sense in the current economic climate. Yeah, it's a really good 71 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.199 question. I think. Um, I think you could argue that for sure. 72 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:10.360 But you know it's interesting because I would say, really that March of 73 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:14.560 and that kind of springtime even into the summer was a really tough time for 74 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.480 companies, but the the economy came kind of roaring back, and so we 75 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:24.000 continue to collect calls all through one even into two. We continue to collect 76 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.279 data even to this day because what we find is there are a lot of 77 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.120 companies who read the book and then they say, well, we record our 78 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.360 sales calls, Can we send them to you guys, and can you tell 79 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.920 us how in decisive our our customers and our our best our sales people using 80 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.040 the techniques you talk about the book. So we're continuing to add to the 81 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.639 data set. And I don't we don't see a lot of variation in the 82 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.480 story from March of to today. But I do think that when I talk 83 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.920 to companies today and you mentioned the R word, you know, every sales 84 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.560 organization is worried about um, you know, an economic downturn and they're worried 85 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.759 about what it will mean for the sales organization for productivity, and so they 86 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.519 are. I'm talking to companies. I was in San Francisco a few weeks 87 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.920 ago for the launch of the book, and uh, I'll share with you 88 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:11.839 one company, c R oh of a big tech company. I saw him 89 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.399 on Monday that week and then and he told me he thinks there are no 90 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.920 decision loss rate was about forty. I saw him again on Friday and he 91 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.720 told me it had gone up to like just in the past five days. 92 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.680 And if it's because he's saying a lot of our customers are disengaging there, 93 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.040 they're um kicking the can down the road, so to speak. They're delaying 94 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.519 their decisions and they're trying to you know, because cash is came and there's 95 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:41.680 a lot of scrutiny right now. Now. I think what I argue typically, 96 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:45.319 um, and where we argue in the book, is that the recession 97 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.480 economic downturn will cause a spike in no decision. It's just natural that's going 98 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:55.279 to happen because there's so much scrutiny even on pretty small purchase decisions on the 99 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.959 on the customer side. Um. But I think that all of the things 100 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.199 that drive in decision are actually on a secular trend to getting worse. And 101 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.279 I think that's actually the bigger story. You know, when we wrote The 102 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.639 Challenger Sale, you mentioned this, right, it was a book that we 103 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.759 wrote about how to sell effectively in a downturn. But I think what we 104 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.240 learned was, uh that as we continue to collect data and we continue to 105 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.639 study how this these changes in customer buying behavior, that it wasn't a story 106 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:27.399 about selling in a downturn. It was a story about selling to customers who 107 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.279 can learn on their own. You know the world where customers disintermediate you and 108 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.079 they can do all their own research. And then they call you very late 109 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:36.399 and force you to compete on price. What kind of salesperson wins in that 110 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.560 environment, so it end up being about something much bigger, And I think 111 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.600 the jolt effect is is very similar in that regard. I think it's very 112 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.120 relevant right now. But I think the macro trend is that customers are becoming 113 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:54.079 more indecisive and there's not a lot we can do in B two B commerce 114 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:57.920 to kind of put these genies back in the bottle or with the toothpaste back 115 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.519 in the tube, or whatever metaphor you want to use. These things are 116 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.920 just getting worse and we have to deal with them. We were they're building 117 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.600 a pipeline for for B two B tech clients, So that's probably not everybody 118 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.680 in the world, but in two thousand and eight and two thousand and ten 119 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:11.759 as well, when the bubble exploded, and the only way to go about 120 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.399 it, I think when you you think about it from the top of funnel 121 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:18.800 perspective is just to the interest to have more pipeline. If you have the 122 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.519 three X or fix, you need to be working on a five X C 123 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.600 X. We need to speak to more people because no matter what you do, 124 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.480 you have a deal that is a contract stage that gets pulled out because 125 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.240 someone needs to save some money. But I want to come back on something 126 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.360 that you you you mentioned use the term and decision, and I believe that 127 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.679 it's open for suggestion. So I'd like you to define you know, you 128 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.919 know, if you if you're if you're sitting on a Monday morning in a 129 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.919 sales courde with all the sales guy and people say, okay, well they're 130 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:52.879 just and this is if they're not free taking it, they're pushing it to 131 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:58.399 next quarter and made perspective that could mean a lot of faith. So so 132 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.279 how was how dold you define decision? Do you have categories within decision and 133 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:07.799 without it? So it's a it's a really great question and you put your 134 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.639 finger on like really the crux of the research here. So maybe I could 135 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.399 back up for just a little bit and explain. You know, we are 136 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.720 very familiar with this phenomenon. You mentioned it before that kind of that movie 137 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.559 in sales. We see it like every day the customer wants to push the 138 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:31.039 decision they're delaying, or maybe it's the customer who start stops engaging with us 139 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.679 frequently, they kind of stopped responding to our emails, they stopped showing up 140 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:39.080 for the zoom call. They start kind of ghosting us and disengaging, and 141 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.960 and then the forecast slips, and it slips and it slips, and then 142 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:45.600 eventually, like the customer just stops replying to us and we market as closed, 143 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.919 lost no decision. And so the book is really about why does that 144 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:50.600 happen and how do we how do we avoid that? And one of the 145 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.720 things we found is that sales people have been taught for a really long time 146 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:00.639 that when your customer starts to show the sign of hesitation you mentioned one before, 147 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.960 you know the customers saying now is not the right time. It's going 148 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:07.759 to push into the next quarter or next year. Even that what they've been 149 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.120 taught to do, or what they should say, what they've been taught to 150 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:15.639 believe is the only reason that customers not moving forward is because you failed to 151 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.879 beat the status quo. So either the customer believes what they do today is 152 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.480 good enough, or maybe they don't believe your solution is a compelling enough alternative, 153 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.039 or maybe they don't feel the urgency to change right. It's sure this, 154 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.039 you know, Ray, this sounds like a better solution. I agree 155 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.039 what we do today is terrible, but we have a lot of priorities and 156 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.279 this fixing this is not one of our priorities. So it could be any 157 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.000 of those reasons. And so what we tell sales people to do is that 158 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.399 when the customer starts to show those signs of cold feet and hesitation and they 159 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.600 start to disengage, you've got to go and dial up the fomo, right, 160 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:52.879 the fear of missing out. And so the way that sales people have 161 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.360 been taught to do this is as a few different techniques. The first one 162 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.080 is very positive. So I go act to you. Let's say, Ray, 163 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:03.480 you're the customer. I say, right, maybe you don't understand how 164 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.720 awesome our platform is. Let me take you back into the demo environment to 165 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:09.960 show you again, how great did you see how many zeros were on that 166 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.799 r O. I projection it's huge, you know, And I talk up 167 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.919 the good you know, the good story, all the great things that are 168 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.000 going to happen if you move forward. Then when that doesn't compel you, 169 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.879 what I do is I put away the carrot and I break out the stick, 170 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.120 and so that becomes a little bit more the fear uncertainty and doubt. 171 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.519 So Ray, you know these problems they're not going to solve themselves. And 172 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.320 you told me how bad things are right now for your company and you're losing 173 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.000 market share, and did I mention we work with all of your competitors, 174 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:37.120 and boy, they're seeing massive gains and you guys are gonna be left behind. 175 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.159 I hate for that to happen for you. So what I'm trying to 176 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.360 do is great kind of the burning platform that compels you to move forward, 177 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.679 to help you realize that there's a cost from doing nothing. And if those 178 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.480 things don't work, what I do is I usually hand hand out like or 179 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399 dangle a ten percent discount, you know, for the sort of expiring carrot, 180 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:58.759 if you will, or disappearing carrots. So here is a discount, 181 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:03.399 here is an implementation window or delivery window, and if you don't sign up 182 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.080 now, I can't give that to you. Um, you know, it's 183 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:11.639 only good right now. And so those are the techniques that these fomo techniques 184 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.039 that sales people have been taught to use. But what we found was that 185 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.720 for customers who have already stated their intent to move forward, that those approaches 186 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:26.039 actually backfire more often than they work out probability in those situations the customer will 187 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.480 will end up doing nothing, so we actually make it worse, not better. 188 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.879 And it was kind of surprising to us to find that, because again, 189 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.679 these are the techniques that have been handed down from sales leaders to sales 190 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:43.679 managers to salespeople for forever, really for sixty years now. We even talk 191 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.759 about this in the Challenger Sale. We talked about how challengers are really good 192 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.399 at breaking the full of the status quo, breaking the grip that the status 193 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.679 quo has on the customer. Um, they're they're really good at showing the 194 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.000 customer the pain of same, and that it's worse than the pain of change. 195 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.600 You know, you cannot afford to do nothing. That's a hallmark of 196 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.120 being a challenger. But it was so it was surprising to us to see 197 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.039 this technique backfired until we actually dug into the data, and here's what we 198 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.600 found. We found that there's actually two reasons that a deal could end up 199 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:20.879 being lost to no decision. One of them is because of the status quo. 200 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.399 The customer prefers the status quo, or maybe they think the status quo 201 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:26.000 is not great but it's good enough. Right, or I don't believe your 202 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.080 solution is a compelling enough alternative. Any of those reasons. Those are status 203 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.039 quo reasons. But there's an entire second category which is about indecision, which 204 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.879 is different from the status quo. And you mentioned this before, Ray, 205 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.720 But indecision is not that I prefer the status quo. Is that I'm quite 206 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.440 literally unwilling or unable to make a decision on moving forward. Now I'll give 207 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.480 you a little bit more detail here. There are three things that cause customers 208 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.519 to become indecisive. The first one is they don't know what to pick. 209 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.799 So in sales, we love putting options and and different configurations and too much. 210 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.200 We put all this stuff because it feels good, right, It feels 211 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.240 good to tell our customer we could do all this stuff. Look at all 212 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.919 the partner integrations, look at the look at the road map, look at 213 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.440 all the bells and whistles. But coming back to a challenge one more time, 214 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.600 you also have something in there, I think with giving straight choices maximum 215 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.720 to people. Yeah too, I believe, like you know, because too 216 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.399 many people just get confused and they make no decision. Well, because in 217 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.240 a world where everything looks good, that customer worry. What they're worried about 218 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.919 is this going from a conversation and a concept to a proposal that requires deciding 219 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.200 not just what I'm going to buy, but what am I going to take 220 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.679 out of the shopping car, what am I not going to buy? And 221 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.559 those are hard decisions for people when everything looks equally attractive, and so they 222 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.600 get that's called the valuation problem. This is the customer looking at lots of 223 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.320 options and saying, I don't want to make a mistake and pick the wrong 224 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.559 one. The second source of indecision is a lack of information. So this 225 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.799 is where the customer feels like they've not done enough research or enough homework. 226 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.360 They feel like it's the next white paper that they read that will have all 227 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.159 the answers you know, and tell them how to be a smart customer. 228 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.039 And then the third source of indecision is what we call outcome uncertainty. Outcome 229 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:16.720 uncertainty is um about the customers fear that they won't realize the benefits from the 230 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.440 purchase, So they won't realize the r o I, they won't realize the 231 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.879 cost savings, the risk mitigation, whatever you're projecting, and it might not 232 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.120 they're not even blaming you. They're in some ways blaming themselves in their own 233 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.320 company. But it's they're feeling like, I don't actually know if I'm gonna 234 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.919 get We're gonna get what we're paying for here. Now, what's so interesting 235 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:35.799 about that is that you could easily have a customer. Turns out, often 236 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.360 do have customers who say, ray, I the status quo is terrible. 237 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.840 We want to do business with you. We want to move forward with your 238 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.240 solution, but I don't know what configuration to pick. I don't know if 239 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.559 I've done enough research to to really because it's a big purchase, big decision. 240 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.440 I'm going to buy this stuff once in my entire career. I don't 241 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.679 want to make a mistake In number three? Do I have any assurance? 242 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.039 Have you given me any guarantee that we're going to see the returns that you're 243 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.159 projecting or am I gonna be left holding the bag? And so what it 244 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.519 tells us is the big the big story here is that overcoming into our getting 245 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.240 customers to avoid those no decision losses, to avoid the waste land of no 246 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.399 decision, which is a waste of the customer's time, is a waste of 247 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.960 our time and sales. It's less about dialing up the fomo and it's actually 248 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.279 more about dialing down the foe. Move foam is the fear of messing up. 249 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.960 Have I picked the right thing? Have I done enough homework? Do 250 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.879 I have any assurance of success? So we've got to get the customer comfortable 251 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.960 that they've made a great choice, that they're talking to a subject matter expert 252 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.360 as great salesperson who's going to guide them to a great decision. They don't 253 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.360 need to be an expert. We can be the expert for them. And 254 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.519 then lastly, we've given them a safety net. You know, we've we've 255 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:45.919 shown them that we're going to have their back. They're gonna see they're not 256 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.200 gonna look like a fool, they're gonna look like a hero. And you 257 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.720 know, in today's environment, especially in this this current economic environment where right 258 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.919 now, where there's so much scrutiny, let's think about it for a moment. 259 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.960 At the end of the day, the customer doesn't really care so much 260 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.440 about losing a ten percent discount window. What they really care about is losing 261 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.559 their job. That's actually much more important to them, right And so we've 262 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.359 got to deal with that. It doesn't mean that we have to stop beating 263 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.079 the status quote. We have to do that. That has to happen. 264 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.359 It has to happen very early in the sale. If the customer doesn't believe 265 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.480 there's any benefit of moving forward, you're not going to sell anything. But 266 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.440 once they stopped caring about the status quote, then what we have to deal 267 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.519 with is their own indecision to get them to move forward. It makes perfect 268 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:32.640 sense. I mean it particularity depends on the tape of companies you would be. 269 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.240 But let's say, for for us a good uh you know I c 270 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.440 P. We've got a the amount of stage ABC companies. You know, 271 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.279 companies were one round, two rounds of astrolophy investment. And of course we've 272 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.720 got some very big one, big names stuff that you probably use every day 273 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:51.359 and everybody in the world pretty much as every day and varying from a big 274 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:56.680 vendor. You almost have a fair few of these tick. But when you 275 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.759 are paying to a kind of new issue vendor and it's soft, well so 276 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.720 it's it's kind of non tangible. You can't take it. You can try 277 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.960 it. It's not like a box that they can send you and you plug 278 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:08.039 it if you like it, to keep it, you don't like it, 279 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:12.079 you said it that, and you know, listening to you, I'm kind 280 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:17.480 of thinking, God, have we created that fear? Have we created that 281 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.799 fear because we've been promising and on the delivery? Have we created that sort 282 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.079 of fears of perfection? And I guess that's kind of fleading me to my 283 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:27.559 question to you, which is, all right, so we know about the 284 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.039 kind of what to do with the phone, and I like that, I'm 285 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.079 going to use that. I'm going to steal that from and not steal it. 286 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.400 I'm gonna right away go ahead. You mentioned that, I'm just gonna 287 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:42.119 put a little trademark next to it. But what are what are the other 288 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.000 advice that you would give to the to the to the to the top selves 289 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.599 gaze out there? What would be the thing that you would suggest that they 290 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.240 change from a more in a more like day to day perspective, because at 291 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.799 the end of the day, to me, it sounds like you know, 292 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.400 being quite a nest about things, probably potentially being a bit consulted even the 293 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.400 selves process and say, look, we've got old receptions and you're it's you're 294 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.160 gonna get crazy at them, But I've not one what you've done. I 295 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.720 worked with your team and I think you should go for that configuration for you. 296 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.279 That's kind of an example. But what would be the practical advice that 297 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.680 you would give to the the sends people listening to us today. Yeah, 298 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.720 and you're right without you know, it's got to be even the concept of 299 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.759 don't dial up the PHO dial pomo dialed down the FOE move is only of 300 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.839 limited help. I think we've got to do is distill it into a playbook. 301 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.240 So that's what we've tried to do with the Jolt effects. So JOLT 302 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.519 is an acronym, so it stands for four behaviors that together we think comprise 303 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:42.400 a playbook for dealing with customer indecision. So I walk through them quickly and 304 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:47.200 we can go back and discuss. But the first first one is j is 305 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.680 judging the level of indecision. So indecision is one of these things that we 306 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:56.440 actually found in our research, almost nine of opportunities across two and a half 307 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.680 million sales calls almost had customers with media them or high levels of indecision. 308 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.279 There are very few decisive customers. They now every customer thinks they're very decisive, 309 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:08.440 and if you ask them, they would al raise their hand and say, 310 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.519 oh, yes, Ray, I'm a very decisive executive and very but 311 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.240 they're not. Actually, it turns out they get very concerned of this fear 312 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.039 of failure comes to consume them. But how do you get something that can 313 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.160 be kind of personal, maybe even embarrassing? How do you get it on 314 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:27.519 the table so that you can have a conversation about it? And so the 315 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.920 j is all about what should we be looking for the sources of indecision? 316 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.599 Are there things going on in the company that might amplify this indecision? What 317 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.319 about this individual I'm working with? Are they individually are personally indecisive by nature? 318 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.559 And then we've got to understand again, how do we elicit it? 319 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.000 How do we get it on the table so that we can have a conversation 320 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.200 about it? Because that does a few things for us. One, it 321 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.119 tells us what's the playbook we need to have to get the customer across the 322 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.680 finish line to how do we forecast this opportunity in three? In some cases, 323 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.599 should we disqualify this opportunity? Or is this is this customer too indecisive? 324 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.839 Are they too far gone? Is it a waste of our time? 325 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.480 These are really important questions for the sales person. So that's the j judging 326 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.559 the level of indecision. Now you already talked about the oh a little bit, 327 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.519 which is offering your recommendation. So you know you mentioned one of the 328 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.599 techniques we talk about in the book. Offering lots of options to our customers 329 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.759 is great, especially great above the funnel. You know, in marketing at 330 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.319 the trade show, we love to paint a big picture of what's possible, 331 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.319 but at some point we've got to narrow up the considerations that if if everything 332 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.839 looks equally good, then nothing looks that. You know, what looks best 333 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.920 to the customer doing nothing? And so what we need to do in sales 334 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.920 is chalk the field and kind of narrow up the pitch, if you will, 335 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.920 and go down from a thousand options down to maybe three configurations and then 336 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.559 put our personal recommendation on one of them. Say this is the one Ray 337 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.880 I would go with, given your your use case, given your situation. 338 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:02.039 Other customers like you really get a lot of value here. It's the analogy 339 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.039 I would use Ray is It's like when you go to a restaurant and you 340 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:10.720 sit down and you see twenty entrees on the menu and they all look wonderful, 341 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.720 and you ask the waiter, a waitress, what do you recommend? 342 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.640 And they say, well, right, what are you in the mood to 343 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.799 eat today? Well, that's very unhelpful. What we'd rather do, have 344 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.960 a waiter waitress do is say, right, this is the best dish we 345 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:23.920 This is my favorite. If you're in the mood for something a bit lighter, 346 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.559 I also like this one. But look, everything we make here is 347 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.839 great. You can't make a bad decision like that. Instill some confidence because 348 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.960 what happens there is I shift the blame of a bad choice for me onto 349 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.799 you, because if I don't like it, it's partly your fault, right 350 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.039 um. And that's what best sales people will do. They'll make that that 351 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.119 firm and personal recommendation. The l It is all about limiting the exploration, 352 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.240 so we know customers will always feel like they haven't done enough homework. And 353 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:56.000 the danger there, there's a real danger for salespeople here because when the customers 354 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:02.799 asking for more, more reference calls um, more demos, more information, 355 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:07.200 more white papers, more webinar recordings, I want to read more Gardner Magic 356 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.160 Quadrant Reports, whatever it is, it feels like the customers making progress because 357 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.519 they're engaged in learning. They're engaged, and they're moving towards the finish line, 358 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.119 right, And so it gives us something we can put in the CRM 359 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.039 system. Yes, like I sent them the white paper. Yes, I 360 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.319 set up another demo, I set up another reference call. But the problem 361 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.079 is high performers realize that beyond a certain point, those customers are just going 362 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.880 to engage in analysis paralysis. Right. They're doing research for researcher's sake, 363 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:34.519 but it's not getting them any closer to the finish line. And so they 364 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:40.039 need to shift the dynamic from you as a customer trying to be an expert, 365 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.519 to you trusting me as your expert. Now there's a lot that goes 366 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.319 into that, and I think of all the skills, I actually think this 367 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.799 one is the hardest one for salespeople because what it requires us to do is 368 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.240 two things. That this is an overused term in sales. But we've got 369 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.759 to be a trusted advisor. So we got to build We've got to bridge 370 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.119 the trust gap that naturally exists between customers and sales people, and we found 371 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.319 specific techniques that sales people used to do that. And the second thing is 372 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.079 we've got to demonstrate to the customer that we are an expert. You know, 373 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.240 in in the reaction, especially in tech today, I think, is 374 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.920 for sales people to show up with you know, we like to say the 375 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.039 clown car of experts, you know, the product people, the engineers, 376 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.119 everybody joins the call, and then the salesperson just kind of backs out of 377 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.799 the way and hands the microphone to their colleagues. But best sales people know 378 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.720 that that's the dangerous thing to do because the customer then stops perceiving you as 379 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.240 an expert. You are just a glorified admin, like your only value is 380 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.559 getting the smart people on the phone who really know the product. So you've 381 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.640 got to develop that expertise and demonstrate it. And then the t is taking 382 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.279 risk off the table. So we know that, you know, in the 383 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.000 final analysis, the customer will get very nervous that they may not get the 384 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:55.039 returns that you are projecting from the purchase. And so how do we show 385 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:59.039 them? What are the things we can do everything from a simple and simple 386 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:04.160 businesses, radio refunds in more complex businesses, using professional services or creative contracts, 387 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.400 structuring, pulling customer success forward into the sales process. What are the 388 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.640 things we can do that give the customer the confidence that they are going to 389 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.480 get what they're paying for, They're going to see the benefits and actually you're 390 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.839 probably gonna overperform. So again they'll look not like a fool, but like 391 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.119 a hero in their organization. So that is what that is. The jolt 392 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:26.599 effect is those four behaviors, and we like it because it's memorable, but 393 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.119 it also it speaks to what's happening here. Our customers stuck. They're stuck 394 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.839 in their own indecision. We're trying to jolt them toward the decision. Right. 395 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:40.160 It's super interesting. I two plots of nuts, but thinking a lot 396 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.680 about cases. In fact, I was writing when you say, emitting the 397 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:47.200 exploration. So maybe you should bring something up to the table. Maybe I 398 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.720 should ask a question. Its right enough time beautifully which was fantastic. Now 399 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.000 well, but you know it's it's a good question though, because what this 400 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.880 is hard because people on the listening to the show, well we don't want 401 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:02.720 them to assume is they can't anybody to help. I mean the last thing 402 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.119 you want to do in sales is fake it. And if you don't know 403 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.400 the answer to a question, if you're not a deep enough expert, you 404 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.880 need to bring your product person, your engineer, your you know, info 405 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.039 SEC person, whoever it is, you need to bring them to the table. 406 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.279 But there's a specific way that we found high performers doing it. So 407 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:23.559 we collected data from lots of companies in the same company. What we found 408 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.599 was an average performer, So use that an example of a tech company that 409 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.559 participated in the research. Average performers would bring all of these experts and then 410 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.200 they would say something like, I know you had a question about the product. 411 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.319 Ray is our head of product. Ray, take it away, and 412 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.599 and they just hand over the call to to the product person. And the 413 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.720 product person would because they want to help, they would take the entire conversation. 414 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.200 They would just it was almost like the sales person wasn't there and they 415 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.079 didn't jump into the very end saying, oh, so should we set up 416 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.079 the next call? Like what's the next step? And you know, but 417 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:56.200 again, what that's telling the customers that you are no more than a glorified 418 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.640 n C or an admin here. You're your value is just that you got 419 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.640 Ray the head of product on the call. But that's also a customer who 420 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:10.319 perceives the salesperson as not being much smarter than they are about this big decision. 421 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.079 And so that's a customer who will want to do their own research to 422 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.640 instill to build up their own confidence. What high performers it, it didn't 423 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.480 mean they never asked for help, but what they would do is they would 424 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.240 sit down with you Ray head of product, in advance. They would carefully 425 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.480 orchestrate the call, and I would have said something like, Ray, I've 426 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.920 got the customer has this really specific question. Can we just role play a 427 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:32.200 little bit of what your answer being. Can you try to keep it to 428 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.920 no more than like seven minutes? And what I'd like to do is then 429 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.039 tell the customer you have to jump to another call so that you can leave, 430 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.519 and then they come back to me, because I don't want them going 431 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.079 to you. I want them coming to me. If they don't see me 432 00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.839 as an expert, then it damages my credibility in the eyes of the customer. 433 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:49.880 So again, it's the way that you do it. It's not whether 434 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.559 or not you should use those experts. By the way. As the side 435 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.680 point, we also found that high performers in the same companies were much more 436 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.720 likely to do their own demos rather than handing it off to so luans engineer. 437 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.519 Yeah, there is a lot of that. There is a lot of 438 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.880 I don't know if it's kind of the automation of the sales process trying to 439 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.799 look like sales face or service now and you know, we'll have a step 440 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.079 and we go the next step, the next step, and you don't want 441 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:17.079 a demo or you're gonna get to demo anyway because the next step of the 442 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.160 step in the process when sometimes we should actually speak to their clients and and 443 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.720 and maybe you know, do it do it in another way. Um So 444 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.599 I think I think for the exploration it's kind of really interesting because you also 445 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:33.039 have multi personal cell cycles and as the selles person, of course you shouldn't 446 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:38.759 be expected to to to end all the complete U technical conversation. You may 447 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.079 have to bring people a bit better at that. But we've seen the polar 448 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.960 opposite also of sales people would just sit back, open the laptop, put 449 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.160 the presentation, the see the system engineer could do the presentation and at the 450 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:52.960 end its okay, do you like it? You want something and it's like 451 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.039 wow, you know the first meeting, or you don't even speak, you 452 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.720 don't like you even pick up the slaves you will present. You just go 453 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.960 through the same motion all the time. There's there's literally falsig done. I 454 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:07.799 think that's not even an average performing here. We're probably at the bottom of 455 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:14.480 the barroom to the judging the level of indecision. That could be open touring 456 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.319 the partition and you would have the very cynical sales right that would say, 457 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.119 now you know it's not moving. You know, I'm always in a bad 458 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.880 mood, the lord wolf maybe you know, kind of not not too much, 459 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.400 so they would they would use that, and then you would have the 460 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:33.319 very enthusiastic sales guy working their tails and just saying, none of us. 461 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.279 So how do you judge that? Like, is there is there a method 462 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:42.039 to judge because it's it's quite complex in a way, and often what you 463 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.960 are saying what I guess from my perspective at scale with a team of ten 464 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000 people, would you have the same level, would you have the same skokouts? 465 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.599 Yeah, so a great question. I think that again, this one 466 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.880 is a This is a tricky one too, because these are not things that 467 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.480 customers are comfortable talking about. You know, they're very unlikely to admit that 468 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:04.559 you know, they have they have trouble, like hey, right, when 469 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.119 I go to a restaurant with lots of I leave hungary because I don't know 470 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.279 what to order it, Or Friday night, I don't know what movie to 471 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.000 watch with my family, Like I don't. I'm very bad at making decisions. 472 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.359 Customers don't say these things, but we know that they struggle with in 473 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.680 decision. They struggle with this fear of failure. So how do we get 474 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:22.480 it on the table um? We found that there's there are two techniques. 475 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.480 One of them is is kind of obvious. Here's here's the metaphor ideas, 476 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.160 right, is that I might think of it like, um, you as 477 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.759 a salesperson, are a a surface ship, like I think of a warship 478 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.480 on the surface of the ocean, and you know there's a submarine down there. 479 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.480 The submarine is the customer and decision. And there's two ways to find 480 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.759 that submarine. The first one is just through listening. This is called passive 481 00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:49.720 sonar, right, So we just listened for the submarine making noise. So 482 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:56.400 that's obviously about what are the things in a sales conversation that become indicators of 483 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.720 indecision that we can then just tune our listening were right, really active listening 484 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.599 techniques. But if the submarine is very silent, and oftentimes it will be 485 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:11.079 hard to discern is this customer indecisive or not? What what service ships do 486 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.519 is they they engage in active center. So they send out a ping literally 487 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.519 a ping, and and they listen for the echo back from the object and 488 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.119 that tells them there is a submarine down here because I got the reflection. 489 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.359 Now, if what we're trying to do is get a reflection back, that 490 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:30.599 is different in sales. That technique is different from uh diagnosis, a diagnostic 491 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.200 question, you know what's keeping you up at night? What are you trying 492 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.160 to accomplish? Asking the customer are you indecisive? Do you struggle with the 493 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.759 decision? Probably not a good technique. It's also different from a customer verifier. 494 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.640 By the way, diagnostic questions are very important in sales. We know 495 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.599 that customer verifiers are also very important, which are for example, NI saying 496 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.359 to you, ray, are we ready to send this on too legal for 497 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.480 review? Are we ready to get finance and procurements involved in work through the 498 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.799 budgeting process. That that tells us that the customers moving along with us. 499 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.920 Our sales process is mapping to their buying process, and that's a very important 500 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.000 technique. The technique we want to use here, though, is much more 501 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.519 like that ping for a submarine and listening for the echo back. So what 502 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.039 does that sound like? Well, what we found in the analysis of the 503 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.680 two and half million calls is high performers would proactively articulate what they think is 504 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.880 bothering the customer, and they do it in a specific way to make it 505 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.839 seem like it's okay. So Ray, you know, I'm gauging from your 506 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:31.000 reaction there that maybe you're a little bit concerned about are your employees actually going 507 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.160 to use the platform or or are you buying too much? You don't nobody 508 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:38.359 can afford, especially in this environment, for software to go unused. And 509 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.000 just just to let you know, a lot of our customers worry about the 510 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.440 same thing. So I don't know if that's true for you, but if 511 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:45.799 it is, I'd love to get that on the table so we can talk 512 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.599 about it and I can tell you how or what our approach is and how 513 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.720 it's different here to make sure that people get value, make sure they use 514 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.039 the platform, and that you actually see the benefits. So what happens in 515 00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:00.200 that moment is I've articulated a fear that you think you're you're going to buy 516 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.839 software or platform that nobody uses, and that what I'm looking for is for 517 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.880 you to articulate back. Yeah, that actually that is a big concern right 518 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.119 now, especially because there's so much scrutiny on every single purchase, Like I 519 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:15.279 cannot buy a million dollars of software and have nobody use it like that I'll 520 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.440 lose my job, you know, or for the customer to say no, 521 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.759 that that's actually where that's not our concern. Our concern is actually the integration 522 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.079 with this other part of our tech stack. I'm not sure you guys have 523 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.559 never done that before. And what if it goes sideways, because if that 524 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.960 doesn't work, this whole thing is so it gets it on the table, 525 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.200 so now we can have a conversation about it. It sounds common sense that, 526 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.400 as you mentioned it, it's really about almost big, very transparent about 527 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.640 what could be the broadcast. I mean, I'll remember one of my one 528 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.680 of my initial stars conversation is slightly different than that what we were discussing about, 529 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.599 but I don't know. For some reason, it's coming into the back 530 00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.240 of my mind. I was speaking to a prospect and the solution that we 531 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:58.720 are pushing was a challenge of a very very big vendoll okay, and technically 532 00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:01.279 on paper we beat that were quicker, fasto better, you know, all 533 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:05.559 the thing that you don't speak to the prospect about. But the solution is 534 00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:09.840 better. The technical people like it. You get into our fpiece because you've 535 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.639 got a good stuff. You've got a very good product. It's also a 536 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.360 very big name of a company. But let's say that's what they are doing 537 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:21.320 in that specific instance is not their core business. That's what not what they 538 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.320 are known for. They just happened to also a very good solution for that 539 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.440 part of the business. And and literally I was I was thinking with a 540 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.760 prospect as to why, and I was doing exactly and it was like, 541 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:34.400 it could be that that you are concerned about, all your teams are concerned 542 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.800 about. So what I was doing with that guy was more about it's not 543 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.920 you, but it could be the people around you, which I think is 544 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.400 also kind of helping because people may say, you know what may see if 545 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.000 is that comfortable with that? Actually they may not be themselves, but they 546 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.079 just they don't want to tell you that they're not because you have a bit 547 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:57.039 of a relationship with them. So using the people around the probably to ten 548 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.039 fifty years of conversation, I think that gay speaking too good. Fed up 549 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:04.559 with me and this is very simple. I've got to choice. He's not 550 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.239 buy the Ferrari. And if the Ferrari breakdown, my wife would never tell 551 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.639 me off because if I would have got the b m W the you would 552 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:15.000 have run down before. So what I'm doing, I'm buying an insurance here 553 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.519 my problem. I don't want to be exposed. And when did I tell 554 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.480 you us? Oh god, so we had no chance here? Yeah, 555 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:24.239 I think you knew that you had no chance, but they weren't obtaining the 556 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:29.159 conversation and it kind of feel Obviously, it's a bit frustrating when you get 557 00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:30.920 to that point, but you also feel is good because you can have cut 558 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.199 the chase in a way. That's why. What would be more frustrating is 559 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.480 that you spend another six months thinking you have a chance, when when actually 560 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:42.719 you You've saved yourself all that time, so you're right. In the moment, 561 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.639 it's very painful, but in retrospect it's like, boy, I'm so 562 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.960 glad I didn't waste my time with that opportunity. You mentioned something, Ray, 563 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.360 that I think is another powerful technique when we talked about this limiting the 564 00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:00.199 exploration or even judging in decision. This type the specific thing we found be 565 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.719 quite useful, and that is, look at what we're looking for signs of 566 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:09.559 implicit non acceptance in the way customers respond so um. For instance, if 567 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:14.079 you raise an objection and I address that objection, then I said, Ray, 568 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:16.760 how did how did I do? Did I address your concern? And 569 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.320 what we found is this is really interesting. There's actually a big difference between 570 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.920 the customers saying yes and the customers saying I guess so yeah sort of. 571 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.679 Um. Now, if you're an average salesperson, those two things are identical 572 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:31.679 and you just keep pitching, right, you keep going with your sales conversation. 573 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.840 What high performers would do is they would stop the conversation. They would 574 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.159 say, you know, Ray, I don't want to read too much into 575 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.199 this, but based on your response, maybe I didn't resolve your question. 576 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:44.840 Perhaps there's another concern that you're worried about, and that's okay because there's other 577 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:47.559 customers like you. They get pretty concerned about this stuff too, So I'd 578 00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.039 love to have a conversation. And again, maybe maybe you're fine, but 579 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.480 let's let's have a conversation about it. Um. The other thing we found, 580 00:36:54.519 --> 00:37:00.639 and you mentioned this before too, is they would proactively suggest object sins 581 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.440 that the customer hadn't even articulated, so, you know, answering one question, 582 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.519 but they're saying, you know, other customers like you, they actually 583 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.960 also worry about this. I don't know if that's true for you, but 584 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.679 I thought maybe let's get it on the table so we can talk about it. 585 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.760 And that does a couple of things. Um. It builds a lot 586 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.440 of trust. Of course, um, you're not trying to hide the dirty 587 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:21.480 laundry, You're getting it all on the table. But also it teaches your 588 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:25.360 customer, Ah, this person has been there before, they've done they've sold 589 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:29.280 this solution to other customers like me. They know what's going on in my 590 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.960 head, they know what all the pitfalls, and I feel like I'm working 591 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:37.199 with a a you know, not just an advisor, but a trusted advisor 592 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:39.000 who is going to lead me to the right decision. Yeah, and it's 593 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:44.679 kind of leading me to the the you know, offering recommendation, which is 594 00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:49.719 the Oh that's relatively for me at least, it's relatively straightful out of me 595 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:53.199 in doing what I've been doing for a lot of time. I kind of 596 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:57.920 you know, it's easy when you've got a lot of experience, is probably 597 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.119 much more difficult when you are spreamnthing and you, uh, what made you 598 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.960 advited that to give to sells people around that? Because again, should you 599 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:08.199 go to your sells director or your customer success team involved them early and say, 600 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:10.400 look, this is this is what the prospect looks like, this is 601 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.239 what we've been discussing, this is what the challenges I believe they are facing. 602 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:17.079 I'm trying to package something. I would like to come up with one 603 00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.880 or two recommendation for them. Yeah, so I think you're right. It 604 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.400 for experience sales people, they just they kind of do this in their sleep, 605 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.920 like they know this, customers they should buy this, that, customers 606 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.760 they should buy that, and they know what the different options are and they 607 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:35.480 can kind of do it naturally and that comes from experience for a newer salesperson 608 00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.599 who maybe doesn't have that experience. This is where the organization can be quite 609 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:44.199 um supportive. Right. So, UM, if we know in our company 610 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.320 that certain I c P s are certain use cases, that there are specific 611 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.119 customer types, there's a specific configuration that is best for those different customers, 612 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.599 and we can configure that within a range of options. So it's not just 613 00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.360 one choice or one size fits all, but you could do this one or 614 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:01.280 here's a heavy or one in a slightly lighter one. Um, and we 615 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:05.559 give people a sense of options, not everything, but maybe three options, 616 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:07.960 and we steer them to the one in the middle. Um. That's something 617 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:14.519 that product can do that that the sales leadership team can build and then train 618 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.840 new sales people to get good at using so that doesn't require them to develop 619 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:22.679 ten years of experience so they can make those recommendations. It's also something and 620 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.119 we talked about this a lot, that you know, we as tenured sales 621 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:30.639 people can be a resource to those newer sales people and sharing that perspective a 622 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:36.960 lot of what helps our newer and career and less tenured sales people move down 623 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.800 the learning curve. More quickly is their ability to tap into the knowledge of 624 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.920 all the more experienced sales people on the team. So but again it's something 625 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.519 we can invest in at the organizational level. So that oh is, yes, 626 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.119 it's an individual skill, but it's also kind of an organizational capability. 627 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:58.320 Have you documented those recommendations and then train people around them and then adapted them 628 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:02.480 as the product evolves and as needs and requirements about in the marketplace? Yeah, 629 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:05.880 and and the finally, I just I just want to dig into a 630 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.079 little bit each of them because I find the concept by interesting. Of course, 631 00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:12.760 there's a whole book around it to two point two million cores that they 632 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.960 listened to. So taking the risk of the table, So so what that 633 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.960 means? That mean that you is kind of a business model. It's a 634 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.480 couple of things. One is, I was the thing about taking the risk 635 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.440 of the table? Raise it. You know, it often comes up very 636 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:28.679 late, so it ends up being the really, like I I've said, 637 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.679 the oftentimes, you know, the space between the customer's pen and the contract 638 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:37.440 is filled with outcome uncertainty. Am I really going to get the benefits that 639 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:40.480 I've been promised? And especially right now, it's it's so much easier to 640 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:45.000 delay the decision and say let's do let's talk again in twenty four months. 641 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.760 Now is not the right time because people are worried about looking bad, but 642 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:52.000 they're worried about losing their jobs, you know, in spending a lot of 643 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:55.400 their companies money on a solution that doesn't work out. So we found a 644 00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.480 range of techniques. But here's what I would say is and though it ends 645 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.639 up coming up late, um, the seeds of outcome uncertainty often planted earlier 646 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:10.719 in the sale. And the way this happens is by salespeople creating um uh 647 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:16.039 if you will, oversetting expectations and increasing the risk the customer perceives that they're 648 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:20.000 never going to see the this r O I, they're never going to see 649 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.239 this benefit. So we've got to be really careful. Like yes, on 650 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.039 the website, we love those reference stories and those case studies and success stories 651 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.400 about like the customer who got the thousand x r O I like that looks 652 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.599 really cool, but let's not use that as the basis for the business case. 653 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:36.119 Let's tell the customer, you know what, I want to build the 654 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.679 business case around this expectation. I'm also confident we're going to overperform. But 655 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:44.400 what I don't want to do is set the bar so high that it puts 656 00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:49.000 a lot of pressure on you to achieve outcomes that we need to have everything 657 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.960 go right in order to achieve trust me like and so so. Best sales 658 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.840 people are good at saying those expectations properly and then when it comes down to 659 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.760 that outcome, uncertainty and and de risking the sale. There's lots of techniques 660 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.320 we saw so one obviously in more transactional sales, pro raded refunds at opt 661 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:07.400 out clauses, things like that. In more complex B two B sales, 662 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.840 we don't tend to see that. But here's what we do see we do 663 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.440 we see sales people using creative contract structuring. We see them using professional services. 664 00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.039 Here's one example a company who participated in the research of sas company. 665 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.639 Their best sales people sell like ten times as much professional services with every deal. 666 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.760 Now what's interesting about it is not that they just sell more professional services. 667 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:35.719 It's the way they position this this professional services. What they will do 668 00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.039 in the calls to say, you know, Ray, I, I know 669 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.440 you have a little bit of concern, you want to do this yourself. 670 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:43.039 And that's one of the great things about our platform. You can roll it 671 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.639 out yourself. We've got tons of videos, lots of enablement support. We've 672 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.119 got your back. You can do this on your own. However, I 673 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.320 don't want to see any slippage here, so I'd like to do is add 674 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:58.320 a bundle of like a hundred or two hundred professional services hours. That way, 675 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.159 if anything goes wrong, we've got the A team here and they can 676 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:04.880 swarm the problem get you back on track. So they positioned as an insurance 677 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.199 policy. Now they didn't give it away for free, they sold it, 678 00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:09.719 but they used as an insurance policy for the customer, and the customer saying 679 00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:13.559 you know what, I like that idea because if we don't use the hours 680 00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.679 or roll them into the renewal, but then I at least know somebody's got 681 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.280 my back. It's a safety net kind of option I think for that. 682 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.239 Part of what I mean obviously, taking risk of the table, as you 683 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:27.360 mention is in complexity is much more than just a customer review. But one 684 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.320 thing that I was thinking, is you're speaking, is that there is this 685 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.280 platform like Clutch and Heat to reviews as well. Well. You can have 686 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.960 and I think it's it's kind of funny because if I'm buying something right and 687 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.440 I want to pay something from you, Matt, the reference that I would 688 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.519 ask is not to say, Hey, Matt, can I speak to your 689 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.239 happiest customer base, because I know nothing from that guy or that lady, 690 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:50.000 and they're just gonna tell me how great you are. I don't know how 691 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.840 much you want to die in them and all that sort of great stuff. 692 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.000 What I would want to say, hey, Matt, could you put me 693 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.159 in front of the customer of yours for which you fade so we can discuss 694 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.280 about how you are an organization when you fail and how you managed to get 695 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:04.920 it back on track, because I want to know when you're not at the 696 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:12.519 top of your phone how you are. And people struggle like that references, 697 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:15.760 and for us, we kind of make it almost automatic when someone get to 698 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:17.000 the reference. So, okay, I'm going to give you a client that 699 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:22.480 we're extremely unhappy, but then we managed to change things because we're not perfect, 700 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:24.400 but we work connest, sleep right, and sometings we have a bad 701 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:28.360 quarter and we've got to pick it up, but we try not to kind 702 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:30.039 of get that done into the g two reviews, so when people are reading 703 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.639 them, you know our three stargical review is actually quite a good review. 704 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.559 Yeah, but you know what you do. You're gonna go on amazone you 705 00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.960 want to buy I don't know a mouse trap. I'm supposed that you're not 706 00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:45.480 an expert of mouse trap, Matt, but if you want to go and 707 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.800 buy your mouse trap, you're probably gonna look at Okay, what are the 708 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:54.559 reviews? You never read the top one because you want to know what's wrong 709 00:44:54.599 --> 00:45:00.760 with that? And I think you know that there is a real it's actually 710 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:04.760 important to do the strategy where you can get your clients to openly speak about 711 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.159 what's right, what's strong, and being very honest about these things and almost 712 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.760 creating a platform. And I was wondering, when you're speaking about this, 713 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.039 could you create almost like a community of customers will face issues and then we 714 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.079 can speak about them. But why in the open, Because really what you're 715 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:23.239 talking about here and all those things is it's really about being honest with yourself, 716 00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:28.360 the seals process, the prospect, not trying to oppromise on the deliver 717 00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.519 and not trying to keep each other, which is a big thing in side 718 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:36.119 and it's difficult, particularly for the newly sure, the less experiences people. 719 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.519 We tend to want to the opportunity, and sometimes it's pretty bitter less less 720 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:44.480 good because you'll never make a decision. So you know, it's it's really 721 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.119 I love the idea, you know, it reminds me. We talked about 722 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.639 this a little bit earlier. But the reality I think for salespeople is they've 723 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:55.280 got to realize that they're starting actually before they even say hello to the customer 724 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.960 in a negative place. Because customers feel like they've been burned in the past 725 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.199 us they've been oversold. There's an information asymmetry between themselves and the salesperson, 726 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:07.360 and sometimes that has not worked out well for the customer. Again because the 727 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:13.239 salesperson only had them talk to the happiest reference clients is current clients only you 728 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.039 know, engineered the demo so it works perfectly, right. They don't show 729 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.920 the things that don't work. They don't talk about the capabilities that are not 730 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:21.639 ready for prime time. They certainly don't put you on the phone with customers 731 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.360 who who you had failures with, right, Um, that's just not what 732 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:28.760 we do in sales. We make it all look perfect, and so customers 733 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:30.840 come into the sales conversation believing that, and so there are specific moments. 734 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.159 One of them, I love that idea of I want to have you talk 735 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:37.239 to somebody where it actually didn't go very well, but but we got it 736 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.519 back on track. But I'm gonna put you in touch with them because I 737 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:44.360 want you to understand what kind of organization we are, and we don't accept 738 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.119 failure with our customers. We lean in hard and we get things back on 739 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:50.639 track, and we you know, even if it were, we're not perfect. 740 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:52.880 I think to your point, there's other moments too, like when the 741 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:57.119 customers saying, hey, you know, I want this, and I want 742 00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.599 that and I want this other thing, saying you know what, I'd love 743 00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:01.519 to sell you that, but I actually don't think it's it's good for your 744 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.280 use case. I don't think you need the premium version. I think a 745 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.280 basic version of our product would be fine. I don't think you need a 746 00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:12.039 thousand seat licenses. Let's actually start with tense licenses. I know it's I'd 747 00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:15.199 love to sell you the million dollar deal, but let's start with the tense 748 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.440 licenses. We can expand from there, but I know that way we'll get 749 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:22.800 some victories and we'll show some success, will create a team of people who 750 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:24.639 really love the platform, and then they'll go tell everyone else and then you 751 00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:28.239 look like a hero. If you buy a thousand right now, then there's 752 00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:30.719 gonna be a lot of pressure on you to get everyone using it immediately, 753 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:35.480 and that's not usually what we see. Like those moments, even even this 754 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.639 is kind of extreme. We didn't find a lot of examples of this, 755 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.760 but even moments early on in the sale where you're talking to the customer about 756 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.880 you know, what they're looking for and why they reach out to you, 757 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.119 saying, you know, based on what you're looking for, Actually, that's 758 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:47.480 not We're not the best people in the market for that. We'd love to 759 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.480 do business with you, we think we can really help you, but actually 760 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.199 there's some other companies who really specialize in what you're looking for um and I 761 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:58.519 would look there. Those are moments that really build that trust, and it 762 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.159 teaches the customer in that moment, you are not here to oversell me. 763 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.719 You're here to get me to a good decision. And whether that decision is 764 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.480 buy from you, don't buy from you, you're buy lesson I think I 765 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:13.719 need to buy whatever it is you your only motivations and sales persons to get 766 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:15.800 me as a customer to the best decision for me and for my organization. 767 00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:19.880 Last week I was in the US and I was speaking to my own videas 768 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.920 team, so people who are at the top of the top of the funnel, 769 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:25.679 and I sat down with them and said, look, as you've got 770 00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:30.000 to stop trying to call people and book meeting with them. You know, 771 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.119 it's instincts of meeting. When you call, you stink of meeting, the 772 00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:36.519 prospect that they don't want to give you time. That's that's the most expensive 773 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.960 currency they've got. What I want you to do from now on is to 774 00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:43.960 stop trying to get meetings. I want you to focus on every fantastic conversation. 775 00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:46.840 I want you to feel good because you do something right. You want 776 00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:51.199 to help them, We genuinely want to do something. We have a good 777 00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.119 conversation, you focus on the process versus the results. Yeah, and you 778 00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:58.440 may take six months to come because they still needed for a companying event to 779 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.079 happen. But trust me, if you have a good conversation, We've met 780 00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:05.519 today much thinking of the phone, thinking God, I wish my team could 781 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.519 prospect people like that because it was kind of cool. And then you cannot 782 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.159 keep keep keeping touch with you. You may send him like a few things 783 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.360 like maybe a podcast with with my Dia or something like that and say, 784 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:17.360 hey, listen to that. So it was cool and made me think about 785 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:21.400 you. Maybe in six months they'll pick up the phone and montor re engage 786 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.639 with you. When they do that, that engagement is solid. The closing 787 00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:28.159 right on those things is strong. Okay. So that's kind of leading me 788 00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:30.280 to my last question because I appreciately we get to the end of the show 789 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:35.360 here. Um, would you have any advice for for those people who are 790 00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:38.679 the top of the funnel, so the SdeA, how can they what could 791 00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.599 be the contribution in the jority effects. Yeah, so it's a great question. 792 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:45.760 I would, Um, I just play back what you said. I 793 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:49.719 think focusing less on the outcome getting a meeting or getting a visit and more 794 00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.599 on having great conversations. That's job one, and if we can and if 795 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.920 we can make it our goal not to schedule a visit, but rather to 796 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.840 deliver value to the customer and have a good conversation, the visits will follow, 797 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.599 right. I think Also what I would say, is there is recognized 798 00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:08.519 that those signs of indecision can be surfaced very very early, even in the 799 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.519 first attempt to schedule time with them and to engage them at the top of 800 00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:16.639 the funnel um And so there's a lot of techniques again we talk about around 801 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:22.320 the jay, the judging the indecision that through active listening, through those kings 802 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.280 and echoes that we can use to do a few really important things early on. 803 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.880 Surface. Is this an opportunity that I even want to schedule of, 804 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:31.400 you know, visit with Like I might hit my number, but I'm going 805 00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:35.239 to send an a E or a salesperson too on a wild goose chase. 806 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:37.480 They're gonna be chasing this garbage truck forever. There are things I can figure 807 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.440 out early on that tell me whether this is worth engaging with or pursuing. 808 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.760 Um. Also, there are things I can do early on too, again 809 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:52.320 build that trust and build that credibility that my goal as an str is not 810 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:54.519 to get a meeting. My goal is to get you the information you need 811 00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:59.239 to to be a savvy business person and make the right decision for your company, 812 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:01.159 even if the decision is not doing business with us, maybe buying from 813 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:06.559 our competitor or just doing nothing right. And so I like talking to executives 814 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:08.960 like you because I find that they don't know a lot about these opportunities, 815 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:14.000 about this technology, and I'd love to educate and provide some value. But 816 00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.480 I'm also very transparent around what we can and can't do, what this technology 817 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:20.320 can and can't do, and in places where we are not the best fit 818 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.239 for you, I will steer you in a different direction. So, you 819 00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.519 know, we love to have some time to talk to you about that. 820 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:29.840 Like that's a that's a different that feels less like a sales conversation and more 821 00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:32.159 like I've actually got an advisor. Here is a sort of an outside consultant 822 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:35.639 coming in to help me make a good choice for me and for my team, 823 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.400 you know, And it makes you feel good. It does something down 824 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:42.760 the sort of a prospect when you know it's the the right thing to do. 825 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:46.599 Okay, you may be very very many hungry, but you will never 826 00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:50.440 be able to sender that person again. That's right, and that's that's that's 827 00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.039 that's the thing. But but I want to thank you for two things. 828 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.480 First of all the time today and all your insights, super valuable. Love, 829 00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:00.199 to thank you for the second thing is the contribution to all this as 830 00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.000 professional because it's not just a challenge ourselves, we forget the challenge our customer 831 00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.079 and all the other things that you've done. So thank you so much. 832 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.880 And and the fact you're coming with actually a bit more of a scientific approach 833 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:14.840 versus just hey, you know what, I'm only your now, I've got 834 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.679 a golden rolex and this is the way I used to do it right stuff. 835 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.480 I think that that that's massive for me. So I want to thank 836 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.920 you for your contribution to our world of selling. Uh And I think you 837 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:30.039 really all the things that you have come up with with with your court and 838 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.599 with your research is it's really about true values, the true values of selling, 839 00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:38.159 which is kind of demystifying the bad guy that you know, someone we 840 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:42.960 can just speak and stuff like that to actually someone who the most successful one 841 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.280 ap honest to the point and don't try to be tricky. So so thank 842 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:49.320 you for that now. And I'm pretty sure I know what the answer of 843 00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.159 that question is. But if I want everybody that has listened to his podcast 844 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.199 to follow up by reading your new book, what is the best place to 845 00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:59.719 buy your book? Buy lots of places online, but if you're interested in 846 00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:01.840 learning more about the research, and there's also some free tools as well as 847 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:07.239 some enablement resources to help drive some of these jolt skills within a sales team. 848 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:10.480 And if you're an individual sales free person developing those by yourself, I'll 849 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:15.280 go to jolt effect dot com and there's everything you want to know about the 850 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:19.119 book and the research and how to continue that learning journey is all all on 851 00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.599 there. So well, thanks Agatting for your time today. May well, 852 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:23.480 thank you great pleasure on the show.

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