170: The Art of Organic Content for Start-Up Brand Building

Episode 170 February 15, 2024 00:35:11
170: The Art of Organic Content for Start-Up Brand Building
B2B Revenue Acceleration
170: The Art of Organic Content for Start-Up Brand Building

Feb 15 2024 | 00:35:11

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Show Notes

Organic content should be treated as an essential part of any marketing strategy, particularly for start-ups trying to build their brand. It forms the foundation upon which authentic connections with the audience are built, setting the stage for long-term engagement and loyalty.

 

Join host Catarina Hoch (VP of Global Marketing, Operatix & memoryBlue) and Jake Hurwitz (Founder, Thursday Labs) as they unravel the nuances of organic content and brand building for start-ups in this captivating episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration.

 

Jake delves into why start-ups face unique challenges in establishing their brand identity through organic content, as well as shedding light on the importance of prioritizing brand building from the early stages and its profound impact on long-term success.

 

The discussion continues as they explore common blind spots that start-ups often overlook when crafting their brand message. From navigating the digital age to cost-effective strategies for building brand recognition, Jake shares valuable insights to help start-ups thrive in today's busy market.

 

Tune in to gain expert insight into navigating the art of organic content for start-up brand building with actionable tips to propel your business forward in the competitive landscape.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You're listening to b two b revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Hi, welcome to b two b revenue acceleration. My name is Katerina Hawk and I'm here today with Jake Herwitz, who is the founder at Thursday Labs. How are you doing today, Jake? [00:00:22] Speaker C: I'm doing well, how are you? [00:00:24] Speaker B: Yeah, all good. A. It's a cold, wintry day in the UK and dark as now as you can see. But yeah, it's almost Christmas, so yeah, we're making it through the year. [00:00:36] Speaker C: Totally. I'm in Los Angeles. I just moved to Los Angeles and it's just like perfect weather all the time. Kind of getting used to that because I was from New York and I was in Colorado for a long time, so you're used to awful weather often. So can't really relate to the cold and dreary 05:00 p.m. Dark on a Monday just yet, but I hope you're holding it okay and taking it as a cozy, enjoyable experience. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, to be fair, you get used to the good weather, but you also get used to the bad weather. So it's not something we can change, so we just have to adapt. Right? [00:01:06] Speaker C: Right, of course. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Exactly right. So today we're going to talk a bit more about the world of content and organic content and brand building, especially for startups. We know that building a brand from scratch is always a hard task and I would love to hear a bit more about your experience with that. And also, we love to hear more about your company. Thursday labs. [00:01:28] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. Well, it might make sense for me to kind of share the abbreviated version of the full story, which will give sort of context as to why I do what I do and what we're working on and how it led us to Thursday Labs. So I started my marketing and design and creative journey, really, when I was like eight or nine years old, I was that kid playing on Photoshop and making videos on YouTube and selling custom sneakers on the Internet and all that stuff. It led to me starting a formal agency when I was 18, and that was in Colorado. I grew up in New York and then moved to Colorado when I was 18. I did that for about four or five years, and then I got into venture capital, and specifically what I was doing in the venture world was building and advising in the startup studio ecosystem. So for anyone who's familiar, you've got like venture capital funds that invest in startups and then in around 20, 15 20 16, 20 17. Those were the early years of this newish model popping up that we now refer to as startup Studios, which is venture capital funds that build their own startups from scratch and then also invest in them. So I bring this part of the story up, because this was a time where there were about 80 studios around the world. Now there are like thousands, but at the time there were about 80 in the world. None of them knew each other really. None of them were talking to each other. They were all very in dire need of information about this community and trying to learn how to build their company and they didn't have anywhere to go to learn this stuff. So that was a fantastic ingredient for me to basically become a thought leader within a niche space. And that wasn't the plan. The plan wasn't like, oh, I'm going to become the thought leader for startup studios. That never actually crossed my mind. It was more, here's an underserved community of very loyal, desperate, like starving people that had a lot of spending power and they need to meet each other. So I built with a few other folks, the global startup studio network, started writing a newsletter about studios, started blogging about it, started putting out content, and then it led to years of me being an independent consultant and advisor for studios. I worked with hundreds around the world and then went to raise a fund to invest in studios. And that was kind of like the obvious thing you do when you're in venture for half a decade and then you have incredible deal flow. It's like, well, let's raise our own fund. So I went to do that and it was Covid and basically woke up one day after like two years of that journey and like, oh my God, I'm becoming a finance guy. Like, I'm a finance guy now. That's just not, just not who I am in my core. I wear different clothes, I do different things on the weekends. So I kind of just had to put the brakes on and stop moving forward as a finance guy and becoming an LP, let alone a GP. And so made my way back into the marketing realm and that was kind of like part one and two of my story in my career. Now I think we're in part three and hopefully there are many, many more to come. But this ultimately led to Thursday labs, and Thursday labs wouldn't have been possible before chat, GPT and other AI tools came out. This company just genuinely could not have worked a year ago. But basically what I picked up on over the years was you've got all these founders and vcs, but mostly founders who are building b to b startups. And they're like, okay, well, my biggest competitor has a podcast, has a blog, has a newsletter. It's putting those video clips up on LinkedIn and Instagram and TikTok every day, and they're crushing it. They're making way more money than me. They're hiring better talent than me. They're raising more money than me. I should have a podcast. I should have a newsletter. I should be speaking on LinkedIn every day. I should become a thought leader within my space. But I have no idea where to start. I don't know what camera to buy. I don't know how to do this strategically. I don't know how to produce content that actually makes me money versus just like me just talking on the Internet. It's very daunting. So they don't do anything. So we built Thursday labs to solve that problem, which was like, okay, you've got all these b to b founders out there and investors who are solving significant problems, but have no idea how to tell their story, how to become a thought leader, how to even produce the first piece of content, let alone make it a strategic effort for their business. So we do it all for them. And the whole point of this is, don't even think about it. All you need to do is show up for 1 hour a week and record your episode. And we'll do everything else. We'll produce the podcast, we'll create all your short form video clips. We have an Emmy award winning editing team, and so they produce really great animated short form clips. We will write your blog for you every week. We'll write your newsletter for you every week. And we'll basically run these weekly coordinated campaigns that are surrounding the episode of the week, basically. And then we'll distribute it all for you. So now you give us access to your accounts and our tool that we use to post. So now all you got to do, like I said, show up for 1 hour a week and you're going to get about ten to 20 posts a day across all your accounts done for you. Plus weekly blog, weekly newsletter, and all that. And so, long story short, the goal and the vision here is to build, really the first and biggest production studio for founders. An analogy we use a lot is like Hollywood studios do this with actors and actresses, record labels do this with musicians. You have agencies who do with athletes. But no one does this for tech entrepreneurs yet. They're the new rock stars. Like entrepreneurs have won. So we're building that and it's largely AI powered. As far as how we actually put out this much volume of high quality content, I don't really need to say that part. It's kind of given it this. No one's buying our product because we use AI. It's just like how we actually get it done. But that's been a big reason why this wouldn't have existed years prior. So that's the story. I take what I've learned by kind of becoming my own thought leader within a niche space and bring that to all of our clients. Like, okay, you're an AI company, or you're a crypto company, or you're a real estate tech company. We dig in deep strategically into how we're going to actually build thought leadership quickly. We're talking in the first 60 to 90 days, and that's what this is all about. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Cool. And I guess, I don't know, I've heard so many times exactly what you said, that often founders, they don't feel like they have the time for it, or they just like, oh, I can't be bonded. I'm running a business, so it's kind of taking away the heavy lifting, I guess, 100% from them. And really, I guess 1 hour a week doesn't sound much, doesn't it? [00:07:58] Speaker C: No. I mean, most people, the way the markets reacted is they'll hire, like, a 22 year old kid who's right out of university, who's good at TikTok, and they're like, you're our new social media manager. That's like putting someone who knows how to sketch as your architect. And we think, that's okay. It's not going to work out. And so part of this vision, too, is like, how do we completely eliminate the need for the very junior beginner social media manager for b to b tech companies? They never even worked at a company in the first place, let alone now they run your socials. And so how do you bring an expert level understanding of this strategically to the masses at a price that it's a no brainer to say yes to the price? [00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah, got it. And obviously, the whole kind of content engine that you build there obviously massively influences in helping build the brand. Do you often hear pushbacks or like, oh, when is this actually going to start bringing me money? Because I feel like often content, I mean, there is easy ways to measure attribution from content or results from content, but there is also sometimes you just as a marketer, you know it is the right thing to do, but how you can prove that with numbers. Sometimes it's hard. So where do you see that kind of attribution piece coming in? [00:09:15] Speaker C: Yeah, so I get asked that with every new client. It's funny because most other marketers, I can't generalize and say all but sure, you've noticed it. Most shy away from talking about Roi. I think that's the opportunity here, genuinely. So I lean right into it. I'm like, we're never going to put out a piece of content that I'm not confident is going to make you more money than it cost you to produce it. So we lead with that. But the analogy I always use is it's like working out and I'm your personal trainer and you just came to me and you haven't started working out and you just asked me, hey, when am I going to have a six pack? That's crazy. I can't answer that question. And if you genuinely are looking for an answer, it's not going to work out. I can't work with you because you're going to have misaligned expectations. You're going to be relying on me too much. But what I can promise you is if you start working out every day for the next three months, you will see incredible results in your life, let alone 6912 months in the future. That will include a six pack and so much more. For example, your spouse might want to actually sleep with you again. Your child might want to say, dad, mom, I'm really proud of you. You might have an extra hour a day of energy to play with your kid. These are incredible real results that come out of working out that are much more than like, oh, I lost eight pounds, or like, oh, so and so says I look better. So it's the same thing with content. You're playing at the major leagues here. You don't think professional athletes are working out regimented every day consistently for the rest of their lives, their careers? This is the same thing. So we say, look, we're going to expect Roi. Typically, our clients see about a five X ROI within 90 days. Those are the case studies we can point to. But every company is different. Like, I have one company that we work with not going to share a name, but at a high level. It was a $15,000 investment as a trial, but their sales cycle with their leads is about twelve to 18 months. And we were at month four, so they hadn't closed any deals yet. They just got a bunch of leads that were now filling up the pipeline. But their sales team is projecting. That'll be one to $1.5 million of revenue within the next 18 months. So, sure, I can't book that as new revenue in 2023, but are you going to stop now? Because really, fifteen k to one point five million dollars, that's like a 70 80 X return, but it hasn't been booked yet. Versus another company that might have a three week sales cycle that can book revenue for the work that we did. So I just share those stories when I talk to folks. It's like, well, what's the ROI going to be? And then there's the actual results, and I get the business I'm in, which is people expect to go viral. Like, if someone asked me, like, jake, make me go viral. I don't work with that person. That's like a clear sign that this is a red flag. But what they're really asking is, I want to feel like I'm getting something out of this. I want to feel. I want to go to sleep at night feeling like this is a good use of my time and money and this is worthwhile for us. And so we celebrate the small wins. For example, setting up your at home equipment, your podcasting equipment, for the first time, which we do in day one. And I do it all for you. Like, I'll order the equipment, you just give me your credit card. It's part of the first invoice, and now it's built. That's a huge win. You just didn't do that for three years. Now you have this equipment. Amazing. Next. By the end of week one, you've already invited your first six people to be on your podcast. Huge win. It's the equivalent of celebrating, like, showing up to the gym for the first time, buying the membership, doing the trial, pilates, or yoga class with your new trainer. Those are big wins. That's a big deal. And we don't overlook that. That's something to be celebrated, for sure. And so I'll pause there. That's how we look at ROi at a high level. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Makes sense. And what would you say is the biggest hurdle? Or what do people get wrong? Because I think there is a stat. I can't remember exactly the stat, but I don't know. One of hundred podcasts never make it past three episodes. Don't quote me on that. That's not actually the number, but that. [00:13:18] Speaker C: Is very close to the number. Is it? [00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I think people sometimes don't realize that this is a long gameplay, right? Do you get companies pushing back? It's like, where is my roi on month three or how do you kind. [00:13:36] Speaker C: Of, yeah, it's part of my vetting process. Like I said, the vision for this is we become the production studio for founders. And so I'm not building this business at scouring for leads and hoping people pay me to keep my lights on. We don't just work with anybody, right? This is about working with folks that we really think we can grow long term with. And so every client we work with starts, we start with a four month contract. The first month is dedicated solely to strategy and actually creating the first set of assets, building the thing, and then for three months after that, we're distributing content every day for twelve weeks. And so when we're in month two, month three, we're just getting started. They just got on the bench press for the first time, and so it's really a chance to see, do we want to work with each other? Do they love us? Are we even sharing a message that makes sense to the world? Are we talking to the right audience? Like, who's the audience? How do we talk to them on each platform? Do we use bright colors or dark colors? Do we go humor, educational? Do we go short or long? Are we better on written content or video content? Are we better with a bright light, audio and camera or dark? All those things we're trying to figure out in the first couple of months. And I always come back to this analogy of being like the personal trainer and the athlete who's working out. It will get really hard, it will be scary, it will be daunting. You will get anxiety around months two and three. And I'm serious about this. I'm looking only for the folks who are willing to push through that and trust the process and be like, oh my God, it's 05:00 a.m. It's freezing outside, it's dark. I'm sore, everything hurts. I'm not seeing results yet. They still get out of bed and show up and meet me at the gym. Because for the ones who skip the workouts, you're wasting my time. And we have lots of other clients who won't waste our time. So, yeah, we've had a few that we've had to drop, of course, after four months and have more that will continue to drop after four months. And so it's really looking for those people. And so I have about half of my clients right out of the gates before we even get started. They understand it. They're like, I get we're not going to most likely see a huge roi in the first 60 days. That doesn't make sense. I'm not going to have a six pack in 60 days, but I promise you, I'm going to eat perfectly, I'm going to sleep perfectly, I'm going to recognize that so much gain comes out of the kitchen and the bedroom and not just at the gym. So they're doing a lot of the things on top of my work that helps complement it, to help accelerate it. But they're like, no, I get this is a long term game. We're here for the haul. We treat the first few months as getting to know each other and seeing if this is even the right pair. And then folks who look at it as like, oh, you better make us five x return in three months, otherwise you're out. I'm like, all right, cool. And I still want to do that because I want to help them see value, but if there isn't it there, it's not going to work long term. And so we part ways and that's totally fine. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. And how much do you see that kind of thought leadership and content supporting the brand building? Because obviously brand is so many things, right? So how do you see that specifically influencing the brand? [00:16:49] Speaker C: I think it's everything for a new B two B company. They often have options when they're starting out. So let's kind of break this down. When you're launching a new tech company, it's like, okay, we need to start building a brand and you have lots of choices. You can build a new website, build a website, you can start a podcast, you can hire some people to run your social media, you can put out a bunch of ads. We'll get to that one. You could invest in SEO, which means a lot of things. You can host events, you can launch a community, which also means a lot of things. So where do you start? What's your mix? I fundamentally believe the best place to start is by building thought leadership for the founder. Like the founder is the brand early on, because tech has never been easier and cheaper to build. I don't believe in the next couple of years that we're going to have any defensibility or competitive advantage or moat around technology or product. I could build a product using chat, GPT, or some AI tools now that some senior engineer two years ago at Google or Apple could build, like now. I can do that. I'm not even an engineer, so how is that competitive anymore? Brand is the competition. And for an early stage tech company, they're all solving the same problem in every space. Everything's been tried and been done. People are tired of being sold to when times get to that. People buy from people. They gravitate to people. And so I believe the most foundational, defensible thing you can't take away from anybody is their personal brand. And so we build this story around, well, who is this founder? Who were the humans behind this? Why are they obsessed? Why are they obsessed with this problem? Why are they the best people in the world to solve this problem? And then how are they going to do it? And that's always an easy and beautiful story to tell. And people gravitate towards that versus this solution. Well, blah, blah, blah, for your company, blah, it's like dry and vanilla, and no one cares anymore. But there's a damn good story to tell, and it's unlimited. It's infinite how much we could say and what we can do and the stories we can put out when we go the thought leadership route. And so what I, like, I talk to companies all the time, and some have no presence on the Internet. They haven't even launched yet. Some have been around for three years, six years. And then we get in, and I always say, this is the top of funnel play. And then from there, it's like, okay, then we should then improve the website, then chisel down to the ads, then get into SEO. And it all comes from how we're pulling folks in from the Founders network. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Is there a danger in the personal brand becoming bigger than the company brand? Or is that exactly the purpose of it? [00:19:25] Speaker C: It's already happened. We're not escaping that. Look at Tesla, Elon. Look at Amazon, Jeff. I'm going to put them on a first name basis, like we're friends. Look at Meta. Yeah, I mean, this. It's much bigger. Even Mr. Beast is arguably more powerful than YouTube itself at this point. There are creators that have more followers than that of the biggest media companies in the world. These media companies would be nothing without the humans behind it, and those are their products at the end of the day. And people under creators recognized that and brought the power to themselves. And now we're even seeing platforms, including LinkedIn, following the suits of Instagram and TikTok, starting to reward and pay individual creators to become, like, influencers and thought leaders. It's rumored that LinkedIn is moving in that direction, but I don't know what exactly that entails. And for anyone listening, it's the end of December of 2023. So if and when LinkedIn launches, like, a paid program for creators to make money off of being an influencer. That's something that we're looking out for. So, oh, my God. We're all in on this belief that humans and individuals thought leaders are going to be the main revenue drivers for the brands beneath them that they're creating. And many of these individuals have multiple brands. And so it all stems back to that one person. 2024 is the year of the personal brand, full stop. [00:20:48] Speaker B: And I guess that's something that others as b, two b revenue leaders can learn from b to c, right? Because look at all of those digital influencers, how much brands are spending money with those individuals more than other platforms. So I guess that's definitely something coming towards the b, two b side of things, which we can definitely see totally, 100%. And how do you go about picking the right platform for the person? Obviously, you talked about Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, all of their birth. How do you go about deciding what should be the platform to invest in for each brand? [00:21:25] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I have my own opinion on this. Not every marketer would agree with it, but our approach is to put them everywhere. In the beginning, I have every client on every single platform for the first few months, with a few exceptions. Like, there are a couple of clients that it actually would do them a lot of harm to be on TikTok. Like, for example, those that are in cybersecurity and TikTok, there's a big conversation about why that's not okay or for folks that are in certain spaces, like they shouldn't be on meta or they shouldn't be on LinkedIn. So, yeah, we put an asterisk on it, but the whole point is we want to put them out in as many places as possible in the beginning. Why? Because your demographic, you want to slice it in as many ways as possible, to keep it as niche as possible. But we don't want to hurt ourselves along the way. So look, it's advised, and it's great to try to speak to a very small audience of people. We're talking 500 people in the world, maybe 5000, maybe 10,000. Once you go beyond that and you're like starting something new, it's too big. And so you slice it. It's like, all right, AI founders that also live in this demographic, or like single parents that also love to work out, get very niche and build your thought leadership, really, really niche, and then you expand from there. So we're already only talking about a few people. Now, those people might look and sound all exactly the same from a demographic standpoint. Like they're the same age, they live in the same city, they wear the same branded shoes, they all love the same music, they eat at the same restaurants. However, their brains all consume information and content a bit differently. So let's say you have 1000 people in your audience from the start. I would surmise that probably 20% to 25% of them really love to consume written content like blogs and newsletters. And they sit down and they like to read with their eyes on a screen. Whether it's mobile or desktop doesn't matter. 20% to 25% doesn't. And they prefer short form videos that they can watch on their phone and scroll through it, like on TikTok and Instagram, or Twitter and LinkedIn. And then I would surmise that 25% actually likes to listen to podcasts when they're on their morning commute, or walking their dog, or they put it on YouTube on their smart tv while they're cooking dinner for their kids. Now, those are just human beings. They all like to consume the same piece of content, the same piece of value and knowledge, just in different ways. And so if we're only putting out a newsletter, or you're only putting YouTube videos out, or you're only putting out TikTok videos, well, you're just missing a huge percentage of your already small demographic that you could be learning from. Because I want to then turn around in three or six months and say, we just talked to 1000 people on these seven platforms or these eleven channels, and we learned that actually we're getting 90% of our engagement on YouTube, long form audio. That's where we're going to double down. But there was only one way to learn that, because we could compare it to all the other places. Or we'll turn around and say, we just got 90% of our best results in engagement, literally only on TikTok, nowhere else. Great. Who would have thought? Now let's double down on TikTok and put some more money into that. So you build the playbook. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Got you. And do you have any cases even, obviously, maybe the founders that you've supported yet, they haven't become celebrities influencers yet, but any kind of people out there that you feel like have done a really good job with their personal brand, and maybe kind of more affluent people and people that started kind of from the scratch, obviously can't talk about Elon or Jeff, your friends, but I don't know. In the UK, for example, Stephen Bartlett is one that has done a fantastic job with his personal brand. Any other people that you would kind of mention, totally. [00:24:57] Speaker C: I'll give a shout out to, as I say that my puppy is crawling up on me to play, I'll give a shout out to actually one of my first client with this model. It's a company called Posh Posh, and their website is Posh VIP. They were essentially my beta client. I was like, I want to try this thing where we help b two B founders become influential in their space and help that be use that influence to be a revenue driver for the company. And so the two founders, Eli and Avante, we met at an event in New York last winter, and I was just explaining this vision, and they were like, damn, we love that. And so we gave it a try and it worked for them. And then basically everything I learned and we learned within that process led to this model of labs. I credit them for so much of our success here, but when we were just getting started, they're two young founders, like NYU dropouts, and they had a cool story to begin with, and they were kind of just know people sort of knew about them and their brand a little bit in the space. And what their company does is they're like the backend tool that powers all of nightlife and ticketing and sign in and finding your events and all. So, like, within the very small niche nightlife space, like in New York City, some people knew who they were, and we started putting out content, and we started bringing in big time djs and venue owners and industry leaders and luminaries to come join them in the office. And then our cool little podcast studio and talk about the space, talk about how to become a dj and how to just literally just putting out educational content about everything nightlife related in the music industry and all that. Very quickly, their faces just started to become everywhere. And it was very cool. It's continuing to happen. And so I'll never forget one night I get a text from Eli. I was dead asleep. I'm too old now to be going out and partying till five in the morning, but they're in nightlife. They got to do it. And he was like, dude, a bouncer at one of the nightclubs that I've been to a few times just recognized me from our recent podcast episode and let me skip the VIP line. So that's the equivalent of you started working out and you didn't really realize you were seeing benefit, and somebody came up to you at a venue and was like, hey, you look amazing. You lost some weight. Come on, skip the VIP line. You're one of the hot people now like what they'll pay me for life after that happens. That's one of the many quick case studies I'm happy to share. And if you're in Nightlife, check out posh vip. You probably already know about it already because that's where you'll get all your what should I do this weekend? Question answered. [00:27:25] Speaker B: And is there any sort of founder profile that works best for these sort of strategies? Because I guess some people may not want to expose themselves and they don't want to become a thought leader. They don't think they are capable of it or are very self conscious or not very articulated. What is kind of the ideal profile for people looking into this? [00:27:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's such a good question. I honestly think about that all the time, very strategically. For example, even yesterday, I was driving on the road yesterday for like 6 hours. I'm thinking about this for hours. Do I need to make my clients more controversial, more opinionated, more loud? And I'm not sure I have an answer for that yet. Like, in theory, yeah, they should be more opinionated and more loud and more just to stand out from the noise. But on the other hand, they should be themselves, right? They should lead with who they really are in their soul, especially when they're just getting started as a company, because that's going to bring the most rock solid foundational investors around them. It's going to bring the best quality employees and team for them as they're hiring. And this content helps with all of that, raising money, hiring a team, and then bringing in revenue. So customers, it's really important for founders to work with the right beta customers early on that they really understand each other. And so if a founder is becoming a thought leader and putting out content that's not really themselves, and then they sit down with an investor, or they sit down with a potential employee or customer who they found through this content, and they're not the same. All of those deals are getting lost. So it's my job to kind of diagnose very quickly, and this is even before we start working together. Well, who's this person? And that's why I think I'm well suited to build this business, because I think I have that natural ability with people to be like, who's this person? And I can almost diagnose almost like my own little mini Myers Briggs type thing. Are they better to be loud or kind of quiet? Should they be more funny? Or should they be more tactical and educational? And then I have to go do a bunch of research with them, but mostly by me and my team on their space. And then like, okay, is there an audience within their space that they're going to really latch onto and become influential for? If they're very quiet and shy and a lot more kind of back office educational and they're in the AI space, well, it's like, cool. Everyone and their mother is in AI right now. We can't talk to all them. How do we go build our own little niche micro community of folks in AI who really appreciate and are warm to somebody who is a lot more educational and shy and quiet? That's just one client. So now we need to build a whole story and narrative and brand around that. So the shorter answer to your question is, I'm not exactly sure, but that's what we're doing for now, and we're trying to figure that piece out constantly. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting because I think a lot of, and even like, thinking of myself or of the people that I follow, I think we often follow people because we find relevant in what they're saying or we find value, but we also relate to it. So I guess it's about making sure that people feel like they are relatable in a way, isn't it? So maybe if you have more of a technical audience, maybe a person that's a bit more shy and that goes in more depth into their conversations, it's probably going to be better suited than somebody that is loud and out there, which probably works really well with your nightlife startup, for example. [00:30:52] Speaker C: But. [00:30:55] Speaker B: I guess it's matching the profile of the founder to the profile of the audience to make sure that people find the content relatable. [00:31:01] Speaker C: Exactly. I mean, think about what a record label or a studio in Hollywood does with their artists or their actors and actresses. It's like you do a r, you put them through makeup, you dress them up, and you make them a star within their. Like, people aren't pushing Selena Gomez to me, but they're pushing Selena Gomez's brand to people who really relate and want to be Selena Gomez. But to me, they're pushing Zach Bryan. It's like a different artist. And I want to be Zach Bryan I want to hang out with. So I get, I get targeted content from that whole lifestyle, not just him. And so, yeah, it's really about scientifically and very strategically and tactically, surgically. Like, that's the word, surgically. Putting the right story about the founder in front of the very few right people at the right moment and just providing them value, teach them stuff make them fall in love with you, make them trust you, make them believe that you're the best in the world at what you do, largely because there's no one else doing what you're doing. So you got to very quickly become the luminary. That's how we do it. And then you're there. It's like a hack. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Jake, we're coming to the end of the podcast, but there is one more question I wanted to ask, please. Do you think that startups face unique challenges in building trust and credibility compared to more established businesses? Is it harder for them or do you feel like everybody's been there before and everybody started one day, and how can they overcome these challenges? [00:32:27] Speaker C: It's super challenging because especially now, everybody's a founder, right? Everything. Think of a problem like there's been a Solution times a hundred, like every smart this or Iot that or AI powered this, like everything's been tried, there's nothing new now. And so everyone's really burnt out on like, oh, new launch, like new startups coming out of Silicon Valley, another company is funded. At this point we're like, yawn, what makes this one any different? But I think we could all remember maybe 510 years ago, anytime a cool new startup popped up, it was like, oh, that's interesting, let me take a look at that. It wasn't as saturated. So yeah, the challenge is how do you get people to care? How do you get people to pay with their time and their clicks and their thumbs? It's the attention economy. We're day trading attention, as Gary Vee calls it. I love that mindset. So one, I think it's a responsibility to like if you're going to capture people's attention, to do it ethically and really provide value versus just try to sell them another thing, another piece of crap, super important. And the biggest challenge and the biggest asset a company can have, a new startup can have early on is being understood. I mean, if people get what you're doing, you're already ahead of 99% of the startups out there. No one understands what they're doing because they're not very good at communicating it. And if you're understood, well, the dominoes fall. More people come and work with your company because they get the vision. More people invest in the company because they can talk about it and share with their other vc friends. More people buy from you because they just get the problem you solve. And that's the biggest asset you have. But that's the biggest challenge. More established brands, they've already done that, but they had the challenge before they were established. They figured it out in their own way. So I think that's the piece with, yeah, it's extremely challenging, but you could do none of it, and then, yeah. [00:34:13] Speaker B: You'Ve got to get started at some point, right? As you said, the more established business, they've just gone through it all. It makes sense. All right, well, thank you so much, Jake. Really interesting conversation. I'm sure it will be super relatable to lots of standard founders out there. If anybody wants to learn more about your company or yourself, what's the best way for them to find you? Get in touch with you. [00:34:34] Speaker C: Yeah, LinkedIn, that's the best place. My dms on LinkedIn are a little bit messy. I do my best to answer everything amidst all the spam. So shoot me a DM and just reference that you heard me on this podcast, and I'll be sure to get back to you immediately on that one. But, yeah, search my name or search Thursday labs on LinkedIn. That's where you'll find us. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Good stuff. All right, well, thank you so much again for your time. It was great having you on the show. [00:34:56] Speaker C: Thank you. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate it. [00:34:58] Speaker A: You've been listening to b two b revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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