Episode Transcript
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The biggest mistake I think, that
many early stage and even later stage be
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to be providers make because they think
they're the hero, and it's not you
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who's the hero, it's your customer. You were listening to be tob revenue
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acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping
software executives stay on the cutting edge of
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sales and marketing in their industry.
Let's get into the show. Welcome to
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be, to be a re a
new acceleration. I O honey em with
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yer and I'm here today. We
can Rotski, how are you getting today?
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I'm doing great. Great Chat with
you this morning. No parimatory.
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When look, we were very keen
to get shown the PODCASTS. Can talking
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about that. To pick of making
your B to be messaging on a Playo
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cake. It's an interesting concept that
with the opportunity to discuss. But before
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we go into the details of the
way you go about and how you come
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up with that eight layer cake,
would you mind giving us a little bit
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more background us to can red skis
and and what does your company do?
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Yeah, absolutely, thanks and despite
the topic, I'm not a pastry chef,
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so I'm came up through product marketing
and Silicon Valley. For a couple
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of decades. I've been working in
business to business technology marketing. Really focused
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on three main areas in my career
and in my consulting practice. Security infrastructure
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of all types, whether that's monitoring, managements orge that kind of stuff,
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and then business applications, primarily in
the sales and marketing automation space. And
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Yeah, I think what those have
in common is very loud and prouded markets
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and getting your message to find in
a way that it can be heard and
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it's powerful is definitely a challenge.
And so my consulting practice is really focused
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on go to market excellence and achieving
go to market leadership. And Yeah,
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the thing I'm really passionate about is
how businesses can tell their story and build
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their brand message in a way they
can accelerate their revenue. And so it's
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good fit with this podcast title.
I think that makes perfect sense. And
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Yeah, we also come across lots
of startups that, you know, often
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of fantastic products but may not have
the ability to translate the technical message into
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business message or message that will reasonate
with the with the right to gen so,
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yeah, your type of activity and
what you do for your clients as
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actually make a lot of sense for
us and we owned those one where you
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come from. So I want to
go straight into our discussion and obviously you
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know this is, as I mentioned
on your this is a very interesting topic
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for us to discuss, because messaging
is key and messaging is at the heart
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of what we do here to Portis, and I know that recently you really
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is an article about make your messaging
and eight layer cake. But for the
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purpose of maybe the people that have
know that the chance to come across that
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that article would you maintaining a small
but the concept, and now you can
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about the concepts. Yeah, and
I'm going to chop for of those layers
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out to start with and just focus
on the the core for layers, and
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then what we will figure out how
to multiply that by two and get to
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aid in a few minutes. But
if you think about messaging, the way
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I think of this is you have
four layers of messaging that you need to
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develop as a tob provider and,
as I say, that goes from mythos
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to money. And what I mean
by that is at the very top you've
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got the brand aspirational layer. You
know what is this big message that you
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have in a good example of that
is early on in the days of Sales
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Forcecom, the big mythos, so
the big brand aspirational message was the end
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to software. And but you know, people don't buy aspiration. What I
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actually think people buy at the end
of the day is a transformational capability that
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you bring into their organization. So
at the second layer, I call this
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the magical layer, and to me
this is the most important of the four
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layers because it is the core of
how you build the all that. The
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rest of it, and the reason
I call it magic is there's a framework
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called the heroes journey that a cultural
anthropologist named Joseph Campbell came up with in
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the early S, which basically said
all of our great storytelling mythologies follow this
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framework of the Heroes Journey and if
any of your listeners have watched any of
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the star wars movies or many of
the Disney movies, they all follow this
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basic framework that essentially says the heroes
living in his or her world, it
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gets disrupted, they have a death
or neardeath experience, they need a God
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or goddess and get a magical gift
and then they come back to their world
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and transform it to a better place. And if you think about the biggest
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mistake I think that many early stage
and even later stage be to be providers
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make because they think they're the hero
and it's not you who's the hero,
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it's your customer. But the role
you want to play in that story is
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the magic you want to be,
that transformative magic that takes the your customers
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reality and transforms it into a better
place. I call that a viewpoint story
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or breakthrough marketing story, and that's
a big piece of it. So you
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kind of go from aspirational to transformational
and you know if it building on the
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sales first example, you know go
from the end to software. But the
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real transformational promise to the user was
will actually get crm implemented successfully for you,
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because back one five hundred and twenty
years ago and sales firth started,
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people had a lot of problems with
Oracle and seeble and other crm systems and
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actually getting them implemented at getting value
out of that. So that was a
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pretty magical promise to that user.
And then if you go to the third
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layer of that four layers, it's
really the what I call the money layer,
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because people will motivate around a transformational
story. But then you need to
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prove that there's value in what you
deliver. So that's where things like value
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based messaging and what are your key
business benefits comes in, and that's critical
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to define, because you might get
someone excited with that transformational story, but
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you'll never get the purchase justified without
the money or without the Roi that you
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can provide in the value based messages. And then, last but not least,
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you get into how do you do
it, because technical buyers especially want
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to understand the how, and one
of the ways you get credibility in your
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message is to be able to very, very tightly link your how with your
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money messages, or your method with
your money, and then your method up
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to the magical story. So that's
the four key layers that we build the
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whole messaging foundation up. Okay,
that's definitely very interesting and it does make
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sense actuate of you do, the
way you go about in the method ofgy
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that you put behind that is is
in a way. So if yet that
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would say we do, but we
never formulated it in such an aptitulate way.
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So that's pretty good. Well,
one of the concept that we discussed
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in the passage is about B to
be BIOS and the fact that's, you
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know, be to be BIOS.
Are there people like you, and I
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like, you know, all of
us listening to this podcast, but they
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also need to see a personal value. You to dump out she'ses, and
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I think it would be good,
you know, because what did your posted
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these, because that's in mult detend
into the best in you know, known,
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but guess environment. It would be
good if you could in operate some
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of the ads that you show with
me on that topic. Fall agains.
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Yeah, absolutely, and that's how
we multiply the for and get to too,
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because I think typically we start with
the business value, in the business
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message and the business transformation in the
business magic, but we also have to
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explain to the buyer what's in it
for him or her. What's that,
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you know, aspiration we have for
them? We're going to turn your reputation
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from tactical to strategic, and the
organization might be an aspiration that we provide
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to the buyer. And then,
you know, what's the journey we're going
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to take you on as the user
of this product, and how are we
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going to make your life better?
Not just provide business transformation but personally what
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this is going to do for you
and then what value do you get out
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of it? So you know,
that might be something like you're seeing as
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the expert in quickly deploying new business
applications within the organization or something like that.
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Then we still have to answer the
how question. And there's certainly overlap
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between, you know, the first
four and the second four layers, but
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I think what most providers do is
they don't even think about that, you
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know, second four layers of the
cake. They really just if they're smart
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enough to think about the first for
which many are, they really don't connect
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at a personal level on those second
for messages. Yeah, by the way,
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if you want to find out who
does this, the great sales people
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do this all the time. In
fact, sometimes great sales people don't even
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need those first for all they need
to do is convince the buyer that it's
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great thing for them personally. So
okay, and so I would you advise
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on that, e. bring that
message, because obviously there is a few
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things in date layouts. Can you
put that into like a one minute a
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little bit up pitch, or do
you think he's a batter to the developed
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of a sequence. When you engage
with a prospect, Houl do you spread
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to slay out? I would see
who play your best spread of a time
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and then evelped to prospect organ in
any word, challenge here, because people
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can only remember three, plus or
minus two things right. So I like
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gets us to five at best,
and we're at eight here. So you
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know, I think the critical choice
here is where do you focus in the
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story or that magical layer? To
me, is the place to focus in.
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Recently, jody beans all, who
is the founder of that dynamics,
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wrote a great peace and Entrepreneur magazine
and he basically said a lot of companies
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have great ideas, and you said
this earlier, so you're in good company.
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But yeah, the ones to succeed, the ones who convince employees,
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investors and cost summers to go on
a journey with them, are the ones
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who tell a great story. So
I always say it starts and ends with
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the story. One of my clients
recently said to me, you know,
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can we've been doing this wrong.
We thought the strategy should drive the story,
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but well, we realize now is
the story should drive the strategy.
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So I think story start. You
know, it really does start and ended
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with story, because if you don't
create the context for how you talk about
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both the personal and the business value
of your solution, if I don't want
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to go on that attorney, if
I'm not excited by your magic, then
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all the value in the world won't
make the sale. Absolutely okay, what?
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That makes perfect sense. I mean, you know, from all perspective,
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we again, as I said,
we don't have to the methodology of
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the different layoffs, but we believe
in the story. We feel at the
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the story is what we've got to
explain. We walk with lots of disruptive
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startups and organization at all is all
coming to a new market. So when
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you mentioned the name of the company, people are like Woo. You know,
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they don't. They don't know that
that's right, and it's important tell
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them. Look, this is this
is what the organization come from, this
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is how we come up with the
ide this is this is what makes us
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different. So we come up with
that concept, this is what makes us
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different, this is the value we
deliver. Now you know, it's about
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how can that value be? What
would that value mean in your context?
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And that's the reason why we want
to engage with you and then we go
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through, obviously passing on to some
of our clients and steam of doing you
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Tel said. But then you've got, I guess, from a perspective,
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to so going to layout, which
is okay. We're going to go into
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a bit more details, but we
have the possession to being directive and people
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to open up so they can ever
post to on the something. We can
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make the magic happen. As I
said, you know, I think it
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makes a lots of sense and what
you went through us, I'm sure he's
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really, really at full for you
know, and and a putty. They
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gotts of insight from the way you
put it together. I guess can my
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magic, you know that I helped
me. I try to bring to my
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customers is exactly what you said,
is of methodology for telling this story in
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a way that going to get you
attention and is proven and works and is
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scalable. And so yeah, I
think the big challenge, you know,
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that you point out right exactly,
is exactly that is. If I'm a
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new security vendor, I'm competing with
probably three to four thousand other absolutely years
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out there and if I start at, you know, my Roi My business
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value. Now I'm competing with everybody
because everybody who's going to do anything has
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good business value right, and they
figured that piece out. So what I
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need to do is I need to
move away from Rohi. Is the first
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thing, and I need to think
about return on strategy is the first thing.
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I need to convince that my my
customer, that they need to get
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to and if I can align my
value around this story that we're talking about,
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that's how I do it. And
so the chapters of the story are
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well structured and all articulated in my
book, lunching to leading and a lot
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of the blogging I do, but
in how we put it together to the
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customers. And Yeah, I think
it might be worth just walking through that
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really quick to absolutely, but I
wasn't. That was my next question.
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So you're reading my mind. Talking
about launching to leading. Your book you
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speak about the importance of the messaging
and how you positioned that message and basically,
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I'll do. You come out of
the crowd. I'll do you breaks
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through the noise, because there is
a lot of noise. You just need
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to go to you know, and
we we speak about about security, but
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you can do big data you can. You can look at any yeah,
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any, any. They I ever, think it's everywhere and it's it's got
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to be very, very confusing for
prospects. Okay, it's less confusing for
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us, I think, because we
are in the market and we speak with
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these vendors every day. We breason
live it and we've got people from the
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insight telling us, you know,
the stories that maybe the prospect don't know
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about. But for the process.
If I was a prospect, I think
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my head would be spinning about the
volume of about options I've got available.
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Coming back to my question, which
is probably the most important question that I
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wanted to ask you today, how
can you you stand out from the crowd
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from messaging perspective? Yeah, so
again I'm gonna sound a little bit like
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the all broken record. I think
it's the story you tell, and so
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let me walk through why that's so
important, how we do it with clients.
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So basically, if you think about
that heroes journey metaphor that I mentioned,
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you apply that to a be to
be messaging framework. That sounds kind
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of strange, but I figured if
it's good enough for all our mythologies and
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it's good enough for George Lucas,
and it's good enough for Disney, it
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would be good enough for me.
So I built off of that framework and
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you essentially, the story has four
chapters and it goes like this. The
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world's change, it's become a different
place. Here's what it's like, and
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I'm not talking about myself, I'm
talking about my customers world. So the
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world that you live in, Mr
Customer, looks like this today. Yea.
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And what I'm going for there is, you know, a little bit
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of the old rapport building and the
head not yeah, and you know,
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it does look like that. And
then the next part of the chapter as
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well, if you're trying to solve
this problem and you're using solutions that were
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built for an old world, here's
all the pain that you're going to find
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yourself in or the missed opportunities that
you're not going to be able to take
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advantage of. Ye, if I
do that right, then the prospect is
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saying, yeah, I do have
that pain. Or, you know what,
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I never realize the source of that
pain was because I was doing this
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wrong. I face you're all your
so yourso get yourself as a something like
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an next belt ormost a ducto.
You know what I can. When you
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go to the ductor you don't know
why you've got buck pain. Hey,
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that's all right, you know.
And and I think when you do that
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right, which we just went through
Yees, open up. But either bit
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more and people will listen to what
you've got to say because you're if you
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own the some that context, if
you're able to say what I believe that
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this is what it's coming from and
you can go to the next pot of
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the examination. But that is the
wilope. Nothing is the first battle,
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woman, which is plus books need
to tick is around. Are You unexpect
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or not? Do you own those
on my wall? So yeah, appreciate
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what you are saying and definitely show
your opinion on that. Yeah, and
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yeah, foresters did some research,
I think about six or seven years ago,
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where they interviewed BTB buyers and they
said what do you want out of
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your sales wrap and what do you
value out of sales reps, and product
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knowledge was like something like number eight
on that list. Number one was they
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understand my business and number two is
that they teach me something. I don't
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know. So this is the opportunity
for you know what the Challenger folks will
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call commercial insight or teaching. Yeah, so if I can go and do
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that, then I earn the right
aid to tell the rest of my story
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but maybe, even more importantly,
to engage in a conversation where I get
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to ask questions and learn things to
it's respected, which is imported. It
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as a challenge on model is is
a beautiful modulist. This is what we
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use as a methodology here. So
yeah, we very familiar with that.
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Yeah, and I think the thing
that challenge, you know, the thing
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I've always been challenged with by challenger, is it it assumes that your organization
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can, people in the organization can
find the commercial insight when they're in the
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battle, and what I want to
do is arm them with the right commercial
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insight going in that can start that
process. So then we get it the
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next chapter and we've kind of transition
from talking about the customers world to talking
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about solutions. And now we say, well, what if you took a
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different approach or had a different mindset
about this problem? And then after I
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talk about you know, if you
flip your mindset to think like this and
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take this different approach, what you'll
realize, as you need these kind of
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innovations in order to solve the problem
for today's world. And that's where I'm
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starting now, to very briefly get
to my uniqueness as a provider, but
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then very quickly I want to transition
now to the back to the customers world,
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and when you do that you get
to this much better place where you're
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getting all this business value and now
you see how the story then comes full
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circle back to the customers world,
from the customers present to the customers transformational
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future and then the value they get. I drive into my second layer or
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the third layer of the cake,
those value messages. And so if I
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start with the story, I don't
run the risk of coming in and,
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you know, as the classic saying
would be, showing up and throwing up
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about my product. Yeah, well, we should. A few people do
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that in the bestaseoth mentioned. Yeah, really. So that's what's very used
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for. I mean obvious thinking,
ass of insight, of I mean,
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I'm I'm very excited write it every
single time I speak to you because I
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think we also show the some sort
of value about, you know, the
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way we go about it, and
not just on messaging but on a few
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other thing so thank you very much
for sharing your ideas. I think it
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was definitely lots of inside apology.
It's probably, as I said, you
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know, lots of people trying to
do the right things, but again sometimes
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putting a frame around it, reformulating
with a new methodology like you do it.
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Is it very useful, because he
makes almost makes things falling into place?
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Yeah, I'd leave you with frame
is the exact word, because what
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I want to do is frame the
market conversation that's happening and influence it and
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create the context where my value is
going to be greater than my competitors values
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and I become strategic as opposed to
just a tactical purchase, and that's how
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you break through and late. Yeah, I think that's you know, you
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preaching someone who's already converted, but
I'm under person with you here now,
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follogens, if anyone wants to take
that conversation of flying with you, reach
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00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.119
to you. Reach out to you. On Gage, we can Redski.
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00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.599
What's the best way to discuss grows
strategy on Gage with you? Took to
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00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.279
you by your book. How do
we do that? Yeah, go to
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00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.029
can ratskycom and you can do all
the about you'll find links to where you
290
00:20:08.069 --> 00:20:15.069
can buy the book. You'll find
request a meeting linked there and you'll find
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00:20:15.109 --> 00:20:19.509
all my blogs and information about events
and you can always email me. That's
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00:20:19.549 --> 00:20:26.259
an easy one too. It's just
can at Kjr Associatescom. That's k they
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00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:30.299
are Associatescom and it just can there. But you can find that up on
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Ken redskycom too, so that all
the best place to connect perffects and red
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skis are ut S K y.
You got corrected. It absolutely is facts.
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Okay, good, well, can
there was really good. So thank
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you very much for your time and
insight today. Much appreciated value your time.
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I know you you extremely busy and
involving lots of different project. As
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I said, Andreid let's of was
autopiquiz you. So I'm sure we will
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reach out to you and then your
food shot to discussos out top pics,
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but for today, again, thank
you very much. Thank you. Thank
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you. operatics has redefined the meaning
of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide.
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00:21:10.390 --> 00:21:15.190
While the traditional concepts of building and
managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed for
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00:21:15.309 --> 00:21:21.099
many years, companies are struggling with
a lack of focus, agility and scale
305
00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:27.019
required in today's fast and complex world
of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics
306
00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:33.210
can help your company accelerate pipeline at
operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be
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tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that
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Until next time,
