Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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The moneytoring sintive is very important,
but Canni days, nowadays, they want
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a little bit more than that.
They want to see future. You know,
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we talked about careers, not jobs
anymore. You're listening to BB revenue
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acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software
executive stay on the cutting edge of sales
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and marketing in their industry. Let's
get into the show. Hi, welcome
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to be to be a Roman your
acceleration or earlier with you, and may
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guess, today is lady Martin from
Saber Business Resource. How are you today?
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To Day, I'm really, really
good. Thank you. How are
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you? Very good. Thank you
very, very good. So today,
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today we wanted to speak about quite
an interesting topic because I think this is
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slightly your friend from the type of
resourcing or recruitment conversation at with good and
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that, to pic, is higher
character train skills. And before we go
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into too much details or explain that
the content or the purpose of the conversation
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today, can you please give us
a little bit more backgrounders by yourself and
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Saber Business Resourcing, please? Yes, of course. So, cyber business
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resource is a sister company of Cyber
Business Growth that was created by Jennie Murphy,
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I'm sure you know and understand you
had a podcast as well, obviously
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before. It is perfect timing.
So cyber business resource is a consulting organization.
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We deliver industry experience talents. So
my background in particular, I come
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from about seven years experience in talent
acquisition functions. I have worked for major
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security vendors and system integrators and basically
are now combined in my own experience and
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the the experience of the consultants part
of Cyber Business Resource and cyber business growth
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to deliver consulting services in security space. Okay. So in terms of services
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that we deliver as part of Cyber
Business Resource, you know we're talking about
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contingency recruitment, retained searches, talent
acquisition as a service or pure consulting to
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help, you know, organizations build
talent attraction strategies. Okay, to help
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effectively bring the right people on board
with the rights, you know, cultural
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feel absolutely that makes perfect sense.
So I just wanted to dive into the
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topic of the conversation today. We
know that what it comes to Sab or
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security, but also some mos our
domain and I think it's be to be
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software serves in general, there is
a big shortage in term of skills,
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and I don't know if it's because
there is not enough sales people or technical
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people, are marketing people, or
simply because there is too many technology companies
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that are coming about. But we
often spoke about investing in people's worth,
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the right attribute, the right character, rather than people who already, you
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know, plug and play. So
people who work the experience and and people
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we would have the right skill set
to get going. Based on your experience,
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do you believe that it's a ring
people based on that person any year
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and the way they interact, of
that character, rather than based on their
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niqual skiers and experience? I would
say, I would hundred percent degree that
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it's worth hiring people based, you
know, on their personality, character,
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they're actually utes, and their hunger, yeah, versus, you know,
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their skill set, because I think
that there's number of skills that you can
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learn anyway every day. I mean, you know, you and I,
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we learned something new every day for
each and everybody does. However, you
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know, you don't really learn to
be hungry for something to be driven.
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So skills, in my view,
can always be improved and experience and knowledge.
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You know, it's great, but
that appetite to learn and to progress,
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in my view, is paramount.
Chut so in a lot of instances,
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and I see every day, you
know my function, people only higher
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on experience. So say, for
example, if they're done, if,
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as such, candidate doesn't have x
or y type of experience, I don't
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even want to see them shut and
you touched on it. You know there's
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there's a skill shortage, you know, in the industry, in BTB,
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you know, software and in security
in particular. That's definitely my bag.
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It's a huge market. There's loads
of companies out there and everybody's pretty much
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fishing in the same pond and it's
that the pond is not getting bigger.
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Ye, therefore, in my view, hiring solely on experience is a little
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shortsighted and certainly not scalable. Okay, looking only at at a skill set
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is not going to be enough,
you know, for a company to meet
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the growth. You know that their
objectives in as far as how much they
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want to grow. So the mindset
is slowly shifting, you know. We
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can see. I speak to a
lot more managers now that, you know
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are interested in a little bit more
than the cold hard skills, but not
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enough in my viewing. Okay,
I think they're still progressed to be made,
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but when a position where companies don't
necessarily have the choice, it will
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have to happen anywhere, because there
is a eno of correct but he is
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not enough people skilled. So I
would you get those skills up to speed?
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I guess it would be, because
the concept of what you're talking strubting,
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I completely agree with you. Do
the way we recruited operatics is we
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contruly recruit based on skills, because
what we do is really specific. I
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don't think we see any competitors full
in the same methodology as all. So
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we can of need to build our
people more them into operatics kind of,
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you know, methodology. So we're
really big on my ring, the the
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kind of mindset, the characters of
the type of individual, rather than looking
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at the CV or looking at that
past experience. These are important, greateria
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and sometimes a plus, but we
can just bank on that. However,
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we sometimes many difficult to get people
up to up to speed and develop their
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skill set. So do you guys
have a process you go through? Do
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you have a time frame that you
can share with us or just give us
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a little bit of information about how
you see it happening and and the sort
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of pain frame you would take to
get someone up to speed. Okay,
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well, I think it's a two
weeight process. You know, you can.
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I think it's you can ascertain someone's
up tid and hunger and willing willingness
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to join an organized tion like like
yours. Yeah, I think it's also
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very easy to work out who is
right after that's probably easier and the other
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way around. So you can easily, more easily, I would say,
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crossoft. You know people are they
they that's just not going to work out
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culturally. In terms of process,
you know what, as I said,
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you know it's a two way street, so you know what's in it for
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them as well as what's in it
for you, and looking at solely what
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the candidate is going to bring to
your organization is not enough. You know,
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you need to demonstrate and be able
to articulate. Okay, so,
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if you were to join, you
know, our company, this is what
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it's going to look like. You
know, this is the evidence we've got
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of coaching people, of developing yeah, such hiring manager has hired x many
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people and now look at where these
people are. Exactly what we do.
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So from wold, from within gross
within exact money, and be able to
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demonstrate that and articulate that as a
message to the candidate, because that makes
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it, you know, a great
value proposition. Yeah, not just well,
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obviously you know the monitorings and tio
is very important, but canidates nowadays
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they want a little bit more than
that. They want to see, you
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know, a future. You know
we're talking about careers, not jobs anymore,
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and being able to you know,
to articulate that in that message is
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this is it sounds like you're doing
all you know, all the right things,
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but you can't put time on it. You know, it's up to
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you know what your organization needs to
do as well and to achieve you build,
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you know their progression, you know
towards that to achieve whatever goal you
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need to achieve. So it's trill
your tallenge management process. For us,
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about on dust, on the thing. It's almost like a reverse process.
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Voice. So Care Rael like that
person. I think they've got the right
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mindset, they've got the writer teacher, they would fit very well with the
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culture. But maybe are the skills
that are missing and then you would almost
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help them to feel the gap on
the skill sets. Okay, that makes
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sense. And and what would you
as as another tricky question, I guess,
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but one of the fine interestings,
I would what would be the main
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characteristic? What you think are the
main and I don't know if we should
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call them characteristic, I don't know
if we should call them qualities, but
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what is the most important trait of
character that you think we should look at
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when our in someone? Okay,
in my view, beyond, you know,
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track records, you know, and
evidence of success, because that's kind
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of, you know, obvious,
how they learn and whether they are coachable.
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Yeah, so coachability is the number
one trait that filing we talk about
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every day with us a number one. We always say, do they have
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a sponge or do they have a
stone between their heirs? If they've got
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a spawns, we can carry on
the conversation. If they've got a stone,
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while that's going to be difficult because
we can do anything with them.
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They will know better than you.
They will know better than you, they
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wan't want to know. Absolutely think, absolutely so these two traits. You
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know that for me to appetite to
learn and how they go about learning and
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how they go about in improving themselves? Can they articulate, you know,
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what what journey they want to be
on? You know what they want to
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achieve out of their next move?
Just INEM I'm sorry to interrupt you,
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because it's very interesting topic and we
always ask the we we are being as
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ask the question, sorry, of
how would you assess the coachability? So
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do you have a technique to assess
it? I mean, we've got twice,
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so I'll tell you the details of
it, but I would you go
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about it for more senior role,
you know, because obviously I'll tell you
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about the way we go about it. We do a role play, you
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know, will do okay, les, let's put ourselves into a cell situation.
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Here you are trying to get,
I don't know, a meeting with
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me, or you're trying to close
a deal with me. I am the
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prospect. There you go, we
start and after that we just sell cat,
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or you think you did. And
if this was I think I've done
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very well. I think I was
excelled. Wow, that's not go chimble.
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Yeah, is this a well,
I think I've done well, but
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some points I think I may have
lost a little bit of your attention and
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you know I'd like to get your
feedback because it's very difficult to put me
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in those pot etc. Etc.
That's much more coachable if someone was looking
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for feedback, someone wants to listen
to the feedback that you've gotten, someone
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who wants to almost have that that
sort of near effect. But how would
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you go about it when it's a
more strategic role, when you can't really
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just pull a role play with someone
who's got, you know, twenty five
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yours experience in marketing cells or selves
engineering? I guess obviously you like example,
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is great in terms of new life, example. You know you can
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see straight away, yeah, that
you know they they'll be right or not,
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and nothing that's that's great. For
more experienced roles you can't do quite
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exactly the same, but it's not
through you know, it's a few questions
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that you assess that coachability is throughout
a recruiting process. So the most senior
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the role, you'd expect there will
be more than one step. So that
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would be the different. Absolutely you
know that the process you were talking about.
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Therefore, you can ascertain just how
the approach to conversation you know,
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are they asking questions? Are they
interested? Are they asking for your feedback?
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What do you think? You know, how do I rank, you
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know, in your view, in
your experience? Are they interesting in knowing,
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you know, feedback on their own
selbsolutely and for me, for me
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that's great. That's a great tick
in the box. You know someone that
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just wants, you know, feedback, and I can actually take it and
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I should. I interest in the
conversation, that interest in the position.
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So yeah, it's Max Sense and
also willingness to do something better and to
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improve, which is, you know, basically pretty they do want to learn
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about how to do it. Therefore, you know, that's a great coach,
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coachability kind of piece that we can
well can uncover here. But but
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yeah, there's no magic recipe and
fortunately, kind of fuction of feeling and
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askin question, ascitating astame goes by
and through the process to so much a
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bit they dive got a much ready
to the art to receive the feedback.
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So, coming back to my original
question, because I kind of interrupted,
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you're going to bit excited about that
on sir, because it's important to us,
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but he's on yours. A main
qualities, our main trait of characters
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we discuss about from the culchability that
you think are absolutely key and things that
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we should all be looking for in
the in the recruitment process. Well,
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for me that's definitely paramount. But
also, you know, consistency and great
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so in roles like in sales positions, you know, you need to have
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that resilience. Yeah, and that's
a quality that you need to have.
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Ad Need to have that, you
know, in any role, if a
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special the level or you know or
the you know, the function you're in
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or the level of seniority. Demonstrate
that consistency and that great through challenges.
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You know what you have done,
how did you do it? And you
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can also gage on the coachability aspect
through those questions to so you know what
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mistakes, what challenging have they gone? Have they come through? What they
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do, what did they learn about
it? What did that teach them and
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how they applied it, you know, in new scenario today. So yeah,
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so it's a it's a combination.
It's not it's not easy. You
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know, I think it's it's actually
what we find for self. We find
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it more difficult Wi people who were
limited past experience. You almost need to
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find that great or to find that
pass ever, and so you'll just peep
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what full on the floor, stand
up, does that shoulder and carry on
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a game and try again and keep
on trying. Sometimes the way we assess
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it, in a very rough way, is it's about their personal life.
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You know, if they coming from
a I've had a break in their life
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and that's something quite tough in their
personal life at a young age of recently,
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and and I remember when day interviewing
again just crashes caut he came to
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interview with seven broken ribs and I
found that's really good because you know,
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I'm so well. This is the
sort of attitude we want. Ninety percent
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we have court to cancel. We
just came you and see anything. So
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you don't want to be interview because
I really want to job up. But
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they had a care crush and that's
probably just that you should and again,
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as you said, that grid at
perseverance probably gave him the job and I
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think it's really important. The other
thing that he's big for us and I'm
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sure for all your clients is that
cultural fits. You know, we are
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an organization, we have a DNA. I would not say that all people
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are clones. You know, we've
got lots of different personalities, but we've
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got that sort of culture and it's
often difficult, or what we are from
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our crimes, is difficult, to
find people that share the same mindset or
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the same culture. How do you
go about what? First of all,
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defining that and assisting that in the
process as well, because it's also very
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difficult just through a quite yeah,
yeah, absolutely. So, basically,
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without you know, that combined background
in cybersecurity and having worked from within.
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You know all of our consultants.
They worked in some part of the organization
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at some point, you withinside a
business growth or withinside a business resource.
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So that already kind of puts us
in the prime position to be able to
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help organizations ascertain that. Yeah,
it's difficult to do from the outside when
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you just know a little an idea
of the organization itself, but it's really
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more when you start knowing the person
they actually going to hire those individuals.
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So for INS, for instance,
candidates join an organization based on, you
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know, values and vision, also
whether they see if those values and visions
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are being translated and lived through by
the person who actually hides them's, for
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instance, in my dree it's not
one way streets. You know, need
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you need to think about who is
hiring and why, what we touched on
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earlier. You know, you can
have a great candidate that is, you
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know, super coachable, hungry to
learn how, all that grit and all
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that, all those good stuff,
but if the higher manager isn't a great
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coach, then it's never going to
work out. So when I speak to
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a higher manager looking for something or
other, what I want to ask them
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is, okay, so what's a
great bay working for you? Why should
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people join your team? Absolutely,
as an individual, that's a good break.
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How have you developed a team members? You know well they now you
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know what is your evidence of success? And you'll find that they find it
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a very difficult conversation to have because
no one necessarily ask that question and you
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can't expect that cultural fit coming just
from the candidate and to work it out
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for themselves. You have to give
something, and you said the scene,
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and for me this is how you
can find, you know, the right
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cultural fits, but having conversations both
sides and not just, you know,
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one lay sends out the candidate.
You probably also get the air ring manager
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of the person who was airing to
actually think a little bit more correct absolutely
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to get them to change their mind
about what they're looking for. When you
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think those from this questions, because
the reason why I'm asking you we we
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often as the question when we get
to a process with a new client and
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we're okay, well, what's the
value of spending one of what with you?
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Someone meets, meet with yourself,
see what is the value and then
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tell us that you're going to give
them a dim or don't tell them that.
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Don't tell that you would. You
would tell them more about your solutions
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and because that's that's the basy.
If you have to meet someone, which
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is the value of spending? When
I Wur with you, they also finding
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difficult and in that process of thinking, often the change the way they want
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to be able. They would change
the way to do the presentation or they
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would change the structure for meeting.
And so what actually, maybe we should
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start with an open conversation, put
lived a lopped up in the bag and
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it's only when we get to the
stage of doing a demo that we take
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a lepped about and do a demo. Rather, I'm just starting and not
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really interacting and just going through some
boring slaves or a demo. So do
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you have the same sort of scenario
when when you as this question, and
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probably question that people are not expecting
to get from you, then they change
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lately their mind time off, what
they're looking for, the type of individual,
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and help you to open that sort
of okay, we need to are
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the character Ros and this cute sense? Yes, yeah, absolutely, and
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you see that the conversation changes,
the level of the conversation, station goes,
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you know, upper level, because
when you start talking about a position,
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you know it's basically shopping list.
I need this, this, this
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is this in this. Okay.
So now let's take us step back and
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look at who are you? You
know who, what's your backgrounds? What's
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have you done? You know what's
so great, and then you can leverage
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that. You know with the candidates
standpoint. You know where they're coming from
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because again, you know, you
can't work how the culture fit with a
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few questions, unfortunately. You know
it has to be that you know much
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more in depth conversation, also understanding
from the candidate, where you know who
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was a great boss to them?
Yeah, who worked out, who got
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the best out of them? Yeah, what the they do. What did
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they say? So you were,
you know, successful in that position?
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Or is it just down to you? And then we'll go back down the
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coach say exactly what reality see.
So it's a it's so intelle, okay.
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Always it down to what the entire
Ange you did and made you young,
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made you do certain things that made
your success. So you'll find it's
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a very into far more interesting conversation
than just, you know, putting down
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the list of job skills and whatever. Let's question. I have good for
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his again, maybe a bit of
a tricky one, and I will ask
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you far an opinion rather than a
fact. But from your perspective, what
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walks to best? With be the
manager that can teach the skills and mentor
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and Really Walk Together, always their
team, or will be more like the
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manager had let the people at the
recruity just be, and then maybe you'll
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be not be distant, but a
bit more. They are being recruited,
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they are probably paid a lot of
money, but Scali for the your job
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and the most senior one. So
let them be and let them do that
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stuff. So which one do you
see being the most successful? I'm not
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talking about macro management of or being
very you known, toup of people and
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too much. I'm talking more about
the person's wants to spend a lot of
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time. So, in a sense, is the manager, would say to
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you to that question, but with
a love from you. And Yeah,
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I've lots of people exeter except right, and I'm really on top of my
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team and I will speak to them
every day and I will want to know
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exactly what's happening and I want to
be very close to them. More successful
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the person is a bit more decent. And so actually my management style is
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and that people do getch up with
them once a week. Don't want to
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have too many interaction. Don't want
to be in their way. I don't
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think neither is the excess for approach. Which is the best one? Well,
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it's a combination of both. Okay, you know, you can't.
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It depends who you're hiring. You
know, if you hire on experience again,
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which is what we covered earlier,
then that experience comes at a price
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tag. Therefore, there's an expectation
that the person will be able to go
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and do their own thing. But
you really would expect at least yeah,
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you you would expect that, but
at the same time you know, is
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it enough? Is it interesting enough
for someone to just, you know,
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just going and do their job?
Do they would not expect, you know,
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some interaction learning from the manager?
So again, you know, it
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depends what we want the outcome to
be. And the same, you know,
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the other side, when you hiring
less experience people, you expect they
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will need a lot of coaching and
development, but not to the point where
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it becomes, you know, suffocating. So I see it depending on what
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the outcome needs to be. Obviously
you want to be build successful teams.
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I think it's a combination of both. Way You've got, you know,
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if you're not hiring experienced people,
you need to be on top of what's
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happening, but at the same time
let people, let people be absolutely successful,
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you know, of their own back
kind of that's consistent to wasting cronization,
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I guess. With people, and
you, you, you as the
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a ring manager, you need to
adapt to almost to the mentality and the
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requirement and the way of working of
the people you're recruit okay, that makes
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a lot of time. I'm really
enjoid the conversation to then. Thank you
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very much for your insight. Now, if people wants to get in touch
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with you, lady. What's the
best way to get in touch with Ludy
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00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:44.130
Martin? Great? Well, I'd
love that. You know, I'd love
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00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:47.690
to hear you know from people that
I listen to this podcast and want to
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00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.759
get in touched with CIDER business resource. The best ways to reach out to
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00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:56.160
me personally on Linkedin, your Ludy
martain or y now, Ludy dot Martin
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00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.880
and Cyber Business Resourcecom, or via
website three w dot side of business resourcecom.
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00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:03.670
Okay, very, very good.
Well, that's great. Thank you
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00:21:03.710 --> 00:21:07.430
very much for a time we do
today was really insightful. I really appreciate
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00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:11.349
you take good time to meet with
me and speak with me and hopefully would
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00:21:11.349 --> 00:21:14.630
have someone's up to big to discuss. We get on in the afford shop
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right. Thanks very much for your
time. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.
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00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:26.019
operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue
generation for technology companies worldwide. While
341
00:21:26.059 --> 00:21:30.500
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your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be tob revenue
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