78. Are We Measuring Marketing Excessively?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:08.349 You were listening to bb revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executives stay 2 00:00:08.390 --> 00:00:12.189 on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into 3 00:00:12.230 --> 00:00:17.750 the show. Hi, welcome to be to beer of a new acceleration. 4 00:00:18.030 --> 00:00:21.149 My name is Anim with you, and I'm here today with Matt Fleming, 5 00:00:21.309 --> 00:00:24.699 Director of marketing at load smart. How are you to day smart? Doing 6 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:28.420 Great, thanks, and thanks for having me on the podcast. Absolute pleasure. 7 00:00:28.820 --> 00:00:34.179 So today we want to speak about marketing activity and the topic is exactly 8 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:40.409 how we measuring marketing excessively question mark, which is a great topic because I 9 00:00:40.689 --> 00:00:44.329 have been victim, or I've made my marketing people victim, of my month 10 00:00:44.490 --> 00:00:48.689 measuring excessively sold me to. Are Your sorts on that? But before we 11 00:00:48.770 --> 00:00:52.560 get into the conversation, Matt, could you please introduce yourself and tell us 12 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.200 a little bit more about the company you represent? Lot spots. Sure thing. 13 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.079 My Name's Matt Flemming and I lead marketing at load smart. What load 14 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.390 smart does is loadsmarts of Technology Company in we leverage technologies like artificial intelligence and 15 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:11.469 machine learning and combine those with deep industry partnerships to help shippers like the Coca 16 00:01:11.510 --> 00:01:15.030 Cola Company is an example, and move freight across the country a little bit 17 00:01:15.069 --> 00:01:18.230 more efficiently. Oh, son's excellent. So so, Matt as a market 18 00:01:18.349 --> 00:01:23.980 are you are obviously requiring to prove the value of the activities you drive and 19 00:01:25.099 --> 00:01:29.739 measure the the row I have to activity. So I guess you can report 20 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:33.609 to your management and to Y'all, bald as to I was successful your compings 21 00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:37.769 all. But do you believe that market all focusing too much in driving shot 22 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:45.650 term resorts and by doing that technically compromise activts at all fundamental from brand burnding 23 00:01:45.849 --> 00:01:49.920 perspective, but or so outdot to me Asah, yeah, so the short 24 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:52.840 answer to that and I'll give you a caveat in one second, but the 25 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:57.319 short answers yes, absolutely. Let me just say up front that, because 26 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.239 I'm sure you know there's some very like passionate views on either side of this. 27 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:05.829 So let me just say a attribution and measuring Roy are incredibly important parts 28 00:02:06.150 --> 00:02:08.310 of marketing. There's no way you're going to get around them. But what 29 00:02:08.430 --> 00:02:13.189 I'd say is what's happened over the past, call it, ten to fifteen 30 00:02:13.189 --> 00:02:19.539 years, is that companies are looking to attribution analysis to define their marketing playbook. 31 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:23.500 So it's not so much like they're they're they're defining their marketing playbook and 32 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:25.740 then using attribution analysis to kind of measure, you know, what they should 33 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:29.460 be working on right or what kind of had the best return, but they're 34 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:34.330 using that attribution analysis to define everything that they do. Everything that marketing should 35 00:02:34.330 --> 00:02:39.770 be doing is kind of defined by the attribution analysis and typically Roy is revenue, 36 00:02:39.849 --> 00:02:43.849 right, gross revenue, maybe in some cases margin to yeah, in 37 00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:47.319 my opinion is that, like that has some real fundamental flaws, even more 38 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:52.199 so if you're a BEDB technology company and you have a longer sales cycle. 39 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:55.680 Specifically, I think there's I think there's like three problems, I think so. 40 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.150 Number One, taking that example of like a be to be company, 41 00:03:00.189 --> 00:03:04.789 you know, with a reasonable sale cycle there are likely dozens upon dozens of 42 00:03:04.870 --> 00:03:07.270 touch points that occur over the course of the six months sale cycle. Right 43 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:12.189 in. The reality is is you probably only track at best half of them. 44 00:03:12.509 --> 00:03:15.860 And then I think when you combine that with the fact that the data 45 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:19.539 we do track can be wildly misleading. So as an example of that, 46 00:03:20.180 --> 00:03:23.939 let's kind of take example of like having a PR or media relations function. 47 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:28.729 How do you even measure the Roi on that. The reality is you can't 48 00:03:28.729 --> 00:03:32.770 even measure the traffic from the referral itself, because how many people see an 49 00:03:32.770 --> 00:03:36.650 article and then just go directly to your website or do a Google search? 50 00:03:37.090 --> 00:03:39.530 You're never going to get heavy should but we all know internally, right, 51 00:03:39.610 --> 00:03:44.080 that media relations in PR is kind of an important component of marketing. And 52 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.280 then I think the last point I had on that, or kind of the 53 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:52.479 last big problem with people relying too much on attribution is that the models that 54 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.669 we actually use to measure those touch points are not scientific at all. It's 55 00:03:55.669 --> 00:03:59.870 literally the equivalent of sticking your finger in there and like trying to feel which 56 00:03:59.870 --> 00:04:02.909 way the wind blows and won't whether it's, you know, like linear right, 57 00:04:03.069 --> 00:04:06.349 so like our linear attribution. First Touch, last touch, you know, 58 00:04:06.590 --> 00:04:10.699 middle touch. Like the point is, like there's dozens of these models, 59 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:14.539 but at the end of the day it's just some product manager or a 60 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:16.540 marketer somewhere being like hey, like, I think this is the way we 61 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:20.300 should go. Yeah, it so like stepping off my soapbox for a sec 62 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:25.170 I guess. I think because of those reasons, what ends up happening is 63 00:04:25.649 --> 00:04:30.649 marketing is up over focused on some activities and completely ignores others. In the 64 00:04:30.769 --> 00:04:33.689 bottom line is that, at least in my opinion, too many companies look 65 00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:39.519 to attribution as a gps when it's really supposed to be used like a compass. 66 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:42.959 And Yeah, okay, that's makes sense. So what would you say? 67 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:48.279 The activtet up being left to site because of that relentless requirement to measure 68 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:53.069 on that tribute, and that'stribution. Sure, I think it's a lot of 69 00:04:53.149 --> 00:04:57.790 things tied to brand. Anything squishy. Right. Here's another example, right, 70 00:04:57.870 --> 00:05:00.670 like let's say you can even factor in a website redesigned into that, 71 00:05:00.709 --> 00:05:03.550 because it's I think it's also tied to the type of business here in so 72 00:05:03.629 --> 00:05:08.339 let's say, you know, we saw take the example of load smart actually. 73 00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:12.379 So we sell to Fortune one hundred companies, really senior people at those 74 00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:15.379 companies, and it's really kind of an outbound marketing motion. Yet the same 75 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:19.180 time we know our website is really, really important. But how do you 76 00:05:19.459 --> 00:05:24.769 measure that in terms of Ouri? Right, like it's not transactional. They're 77 00:05:24.769 --> 00:05:27.490 not going to come to our website and do business through our website. But 78 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:30.769 there's an impact. If one of our sales people, for instance, gets 79 00:05:30.850 --> 00:05:33.490 like the VP of supply chain, let's say it's staples, on the phone, 80 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:36.759 and then that VP goes to check out our website and I can't find 81 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.399 what they were just pitched on the phone. How do you qualify? How 82 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:44.079 do you quantify that? You can't. So there's always kind of in so 83 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.639 I one I think it's kind of tied to the type of business that you're 84 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.350 in. But to I think there will always be things that are hard to 85 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:56.509 measure, that we know like deep in our gut are wildly important and even 86 00:05:56.550 --> 00:06:00.350 it's logical that they're important, but because attribution can only take you so far, 87 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:05.420 you get stuck and I see that happening over and over again. Noun, 88 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:09.019 that's time. So in jails are end then? Is that a way 89 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:12.459 to measure bread a Lottess? Yeah, I think there are. You know, 90 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:15.779 I think again it depends on the stage of company that you're at right 91 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:19.050 in terms of what resources you can put into measuring that. I think number 92 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:23.889 one, you can look at kind of organic branded searches for your company and 93 00:06:23.970 --> 00:06:27.810 how that trends over not over time. Hopefully you actually have like a unique 94 00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:30.209 company name that isn't like echo or something like that, right, but you 95 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:34.240 could potentially manage kind of organic search for your brand. You can do stuff 96 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.319 like a brand awareness surveys and, I think, perhaps to a lesser extent, 97 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.199 just kind of thinking about the relationship that you have with your customers. 98 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:46.000 You could potentially look at stuff that's similar to MPs score, so kind of 99 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.550 like how do people actually feel about your company? Beyond just kind of being 100 00:06:48.589 --> 00:06:53.110 aware, and I think this is going to sound, I guess, a 101 00:06:53.389 --> 00:06:56.949 little bit sappy or too much pine the sky, but I think when you've 102 00:06:56.990 --> 00:07:01.019 really focused on brand marketing activities and specifically like building kind of brand affinity with 103 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:04.220 the people you're trying to sell to, there is a buzz in the way 104 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:09.180 that they engage with you. I think as an example of that, you 105 00:07:09.259 --> 00:07:13.699 know drifts spent a lot of time, I think, focused on brand marketing 106 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.610 and as a result of that, you know, they were able to launch 107 00:07:16.689 --> 00:07:20.050 their own event and, you know, sell it to capacity. Is that 108 00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:25.329 a you know, like I think that's actually kind of a latent effect of 109 00:07:25.649 --> 00:07:29.889 them kind of spending so much time defining their brand and really focusing on it. 110 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:31.319 Yeah, great, take exam put as I live done. They've done 111 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.639 very wetter on that to be false. So a that that makes perffix sense. 112 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.160 So in that case, do you believe that the marketels are being less 113 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:43.079 creative? Seems I expected to spend mure time in doing it and then a 114 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:47.269 key colle and res are driven type of approach. Absolutely definitely. I think 115 00:07:47.310 --> 00:07:53.269 over the past ten to fifteen years there's been a massive over focus on both 116 00:07:53.470 --> 00:07:57.470 tech and an analytics and as a resulted, as a result of that, 117 00:07:57.550 --> 00:08:01.980 I think marketing the game very transactional, right. So it was like how 118 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:05.139 many mq wells did you bring in? How many of those MQ wells turned 119 00:08:05.180 --> 00:08:07.660 to ask you, wells, how did that turn into revenue? And we 120 00:08:07.779 --> 00:08:11.620 came, we became like so focused on transactional mark marketing that it really came 121 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:16.490 at the cost of building a brand and building affinity with that brand. And 122 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:18.089 when I say that, I really want I'm talking about is like building a 123 00:08:18.209 --> 00:08:22.850 brand in building an authentic connection with the people that you're actually trying to sell 124 00:08:22.930 --> 00:08:24.970 to. And it's crazy because I think you end up having like you have 125 00:08:26.089 --> 00:08:28.279 marketers who know how you know. They're like a grand wizard in Marquetto or 126 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.679 hub spot, but they don't know how to write. They can't all a 127 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.919 story and I believe that the overfocused on analyt x has actually gotten US further 128 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.950 from the results we want because again, right those attribution analysis are fundamentally flawed. 129 00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:46.710 They're only tracking the points you can track and then they're waiting those touch 130 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:52.110 points very arbitral. So if anything, I think the overfocus on analytics, 131 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:54.820 well it's important, it actually gets US further away from the results that we 132 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:58.620 want, which is, you know, for most people, revenue. So 133 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:03.019 I would you suggest you obviously again and you mentioned it a couple of times 134 00:09:03.059 --> 00:09:07.139 in in the conversation so far. It does depends on the type of organization. 135 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:09.210 So I don't know how big is your team? A lot smart. 136 00:09:09.210 --> 00:09:11.529 I don't know if you're on your own. But let's say you've got a 137 00:09:11.570 --> 00:09:16.730 small organization. You've got someone who's got maybe you know, a CMO and 138 00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:20.289 two three people in the organization worldwide. Of course they won't be able to 139 00:09:20.450 --> 00:09:24.919 as someone with marketing operations, someone with content marketing, someone with online marketing, 140 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:28.840 whatever it could be. You know at the team that you would have 141 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.759 in the Coca Cola and know all those large organizations may have like thousands of 142 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.000 people in marketing. So if you, if you are limited with resources, 143 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.110 and I'm sure you'll say that, you look great at tools, and analytic 144 00:09:41.590 --> 00:09:46.110 is quite important. Is a part of it that you can't completely revoke from 145 00:09:46.269 --> 00:09:50.789 from your from your yours process. So how would you attribute the time, 146 00:09:50.149 --> 00:09:54.179 how much, how much should be spend on analytical driving results, commuting anything 147 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.700 about what you are doing, versus actually, you know, being creative, 148 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:03.340 thinking outside the box and making your prospect thing that you know you coming up 149 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:07.100 with the greatest compaign wants to engage with you. Yeah, so what I 150 00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:11.289 would say is I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Like the you know, 151 00:10:11.370 --> 00:10:15.450 keeping an eye on the analytics and then also being able to think creatively. 152 00:10:15.769 --> 00:10:18.889 I think there's a balancing act to that, right. Like I think that 153 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:22.240 also plays into kind of how you think about like the budget that supports those 154 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.000 activities, right. That was kind of my next Question Time and budget. 155 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:28.919 So yeah, it kind of I'll do you spread that, because I completely 156 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.840 understand what you're saying, but I put, you know, putting my ceu 157 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.429 at all. I still need to get some sort of measure. I need 158 00:10:35.509 --> 00:10:39.389 to get to feel saying, you know, I might is driving the right 159 00:10:39.429 --> 00:10:45.190 thing. I made not begetting GM Qures, but all the prospective meets everything 160 00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:48.590 at I'm reading about my company is we are the new Ronics of you know, 161 00:10:48.669 --> 00:10:52.139 all the BMW or whatever I could mean a go, all those brands 162 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:56.179 being associated to success and everything from a client's perspective. And well, is 163 00:10:56.299 --> 00:11:00.940 that that could be just through conversation, you know. At the same time, 164 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:03.100 I'm sure you need to justify the tools that you are using your marketing 165 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:07.850 budgets. I'm kind of trying to ask your question around. I'll do you 166 00:11:07.009 --> 00:11:11.970 go and get more money as a marketer without, you know, basically balancing 167 00:11:13.009 --> 00:11:13.929 boats. As you say. It's a balancing act. So I'd like to 168 00:11:13.970 --> 00:11:18.169 get your sorts on that. I know you. Yeah, it's a hard 169 00:11:18.210 --> 00:11:20.120 question and it's a really good question, really really good, because I think 170 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.600 that's kind of you know, it forces me to put my money where my 171 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.759 mouth is. Right. So let me just say one thing up front, 172 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.159 and it may not be the thing thing that you'd want to hear as a 173 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.710 CEO. Right, right, well, there will be activities that your company 174 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:37.070 should absolutely be doing that you will never be able to measure. The RLIFE. 175 00:11:37.429 --> 00:11:43.470 However, Huh, and that sounds scary. It should be scary, 176 00:11:43.549 --> 00:11:46.269 but it's just it's the way it is, and you can kind of like 177 00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:48.940 talk around it a little bit, you know, like Oh, like, 178 00:11:48.059 --> 00:11:52.299 well, maybe it will increase our conversion rate five percent on the website and 179 00:11:52.340 --> 00:11:54.379 that results in x many leads, x many opportunities, x many meetings, 180 00:11:54.379 --> 00:11:56.980 x many deals. Right, you can do that, but it really like 181 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:01.649 your you're you're just trying to make yourself feel better for making that invest so, 182 00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:03.889 yeah, maybe that's controversial, but that's kind of how I think about 183 00:12:03.889 --> 00:12:07.009 they're always be things that you can't measure. How does that relate to how 184 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:11.250 I think about splitting budget and activity? Because at the end of the day, 185 00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:15.610 I think it's a compromise. Right. So how I am personally? 186 00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:18.679 Let me just start by saying that, like, I would right now invest 187 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:22.000 more earn brand, but there's obviously pressure from my boss, there's pressure from 188 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:28.240 senior leadership to focus on like demand Gen activities that are more kind of typically 189 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:33.029 trackable. Right. So I'll tell you kind of how I think about it 190 00:12:33.110 --> 00:12:35.590 and how I like the framework I use for doing that. So what I 191 00:12:35.710 --> 00:12:41.950 do is I first start with figuring out, basically doing the reverse funnel math 192 00:12:41.070 --> 00:12:45.620 to identify, to keep the rest of it, to keep my peers and 193 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:48.860 my boss and the management team happy, how many whether it's leads, mqls. 194 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:50.899 You know, however, you define top of the funnel right, use 195 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:56.220 the reverse funnel math to basically backtrack out what you need to be spending in, 196 00:12:56.779 --> 00:13:00.250 you know, a typical demanjat program right, or demand M programs across 197 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:03.049 a quarter to hit that quarterly target. Yeah, assuming revenue target, that's 198 00:13:03.049 --> 00:13:05.850 going to take a massive chunk of change out of your budget, right, 199 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.129 like that's just good and you have to do it because it is a compromise 200 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:11.610 with other people on your team. So that's number one. So I'm using 201 00:13:11.649 --> 00:13:16.879 reverse funnel math to backtrack out the demand end budget and that chunk is spoken 202 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.759 for. Then there's also, you know, the tools and tech. I 203 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:22.960 need some carving that out, but typically what ends up happening is is like, 204 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.679 after you've kind of done your funnel analysis, you've come up with your 205 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:28.909 quarterly targets in terms of like what you need to hit, and then also 206 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:33.909 the costs and campaigns that you know you need to run right to actually hit 207 00:13:33.950 --> 00:13:35.710 that target, there's going to be a chunk of budget that's left over. 208 00:13:37.029 --> 00:13:41.190 Almost always right, and typically the way I think about that is all go 209 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:45.419 to senior management say hey, I'm signing up for this lead target, this 210 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:48.419 opportunity target, this customer target. I'm going to use this amount of money 211 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:52.500 to actually go out and get those leads or empty walls, however you wanted 212 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:56.690 to find it. But there's this chunk of budget that's left over that I'm 213 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:00.250 going to be using to build brandware, or not necessarily brand awareness, I 214 00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:03.210 like to say brand affinity, brand affinity with the people were trying to sell 215 00:14:03.250 --> 00:14:05.090 to. You know, that could be roughly twenty, two thirty percent of 216 00:14:05.129 --> 00:14:07.929 the budget. Typically it's closer to twenty. And the other thing I would 217 00:14:07.929 --> 00:14:13.879 say there is that what we do is we were in abm shop, right, 218 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.960 so where account based, marketing, Account Bass sales. So what new 219 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.320 is when I when we talk about those brand activities, right, depending on 220 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.350 the platform, you can get a glimpse into what companies are actually engaging with 221 00:14:24.429 --> 00:14:26.990 that brand content. Right. So, for instance, Linkedin, if I 222 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:31.110 run sponsored video and target it to the prospects and companies that were actively trying 223 00:14:31.149 --> 00:14:35.429 to get into I can see whether or not those companies engage with the content. 224 00:14:35.070 --> 00:14:37.149 So that's kind of how I think about it. You know, start 225 00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:41.340 with the demand, Jen figure out the targets that you need to hit to 226 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:43.460 one hit your revenue number, but to keep everyone happy, you know, 227 00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:46.259 carve out what you need for tools, but then, kind of with that 228 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:50.740 chunk of budget that's left over, I would dedicate that to brand and, 229 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:52.649 to be honest, like, if I didn't have to make those compromises, 230 00:14:52.730 --> 00:14:56.850 I'd probably invest even more in brand, simply because not to like, you 231 00:14:56.929 --> 00:15:00.090 know, go on a diet tribe. But if you think about it, 232 00:15:00.529 --> 00:15:05.129 contents becoming more saturated. Ad Budgets are going up, compounding roughly twenty percent 233 00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:09.639 year over year. So like those typical like demand employs or play book, 234 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.879 you know that demand gend playbook is rapidly becoming stale and more expensive. So 235 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.360 I would actually argue that, you know, going into the next five years, 236 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.750 a company's ability to generate demand is actually going to be infinitely better or 237 00:15:22.990 --> 00:15:28.830 more efficient by do it by building brand and building brand affinity, then it 238 00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:33.230 would be trying to do any typical marketing playbook, you know, like gated 239 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:37.899 content, Gavid Webinar ad supporting that stuff like that. Yeah, I talked 240 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:39.700 a lot. I hope that makes sense. That makes perfect sense, I 241 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:43.860 think. I think you know you're right, just kind of to de fitting 242 00:15:43.899 --> 00:15:46.100 you of good t when you group, when you go insight is show up 243 00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:50.649 and the websites you write. I mean the difficulty of the topic today is 244 00:15:50.690 --> 00:15:54.330 that I think you can of need to measure some stuff because you can't get 245 00:15:54.370 --> 00:15:58.730 away with it. But I think what we're saying is that, look, 246 00:15:58.809 --> 00:16:00.289 you still need to think about your brand. You need to think about the 247 00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:03.759 longer term. Don't just get because if not, will everybody will do email 248 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.919 campaigns, which is kind of a little bit dead now, but very easy 249 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.360 to manage, very easy to measure the result. Someone respond to the email. 250 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.000 What are interested? If they don't respond, well, technically they're not 251 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.600 interested. But I think, I think you can of eat the nail on 252 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.309 the end with the with the way to go about it. And and I 253 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:23.629 guess for me, from my personal perspective, which is may not be the 254 00:16:25.230 --> 00:16:27.429 perspective of all the audience, what I really wanted to get from you today 255 00:16:27.509 --> 00:16:32.860 is you know what sort of percentage of budgets, percentage of time would you 256 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:36.659 be allocating the brand, and I think if we were to get a rough 257 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.379 number, I would be around twenty persons, just like a fifth of time 258 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:44.179 and the fifth of the of the budget, which, you know, kind 259 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.649 of makes sense to me. You know, it's it's it's it's important, 260 00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:52.330 I think, to invest. May Be thinking about it from a different perspective 261 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:56.929 because operatic is a company that I started. You know, I was there 262 00:16:56.009 --> 00:17:00.049 from day one. So the name operatics the brand really mean something to me. 263 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:03.679 So I want the brand to do well and the brand to thrive. 264 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.799 And may be different when you are in an organization it is a bit larger 265 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.920 and people may not say it in some perspective, but twenty person seems fair 266 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.230 and I think that's that's emissively what we are trying to do. I've said 267 00:17:15.269 --> 00:17:19.789 that already on a few on a few episodes, but you know, it's 268 00:17:19.829 --> 00:17:23.710 it's kind of refreshing because I was probably on the opposite side thinking, you 269 00:17:23.789 --> 00:17:26.869 know, brand Pia, what's the point? You know our new complas, 270 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:32.500 realize it's use less. Up until the point I started to get into conversation 271 00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:37.500 with prospect that I was meeting at events or even people emailing me and saying, 272 00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:41.460 look, just would like to really interested to work with the products which 273 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:45.329 just you know, we cannot validated the references and stuff. We already spoke 274 00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:48.809 to people. Lots of people speak about you, guys, and there is 275 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:51.529 a good vibes around you. There is a buzz around you, but I 276 00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:55.769 just don't know if I can afford your services. So I wanted to speak 277 00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:57.569 to you and see if, you know, I made too small and made 278 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.799 the right size to work with you. Petickuly, people approaching you saying or 279 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.839 you seem to be doing so great that I don't know if I've got enough 280 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:07.480 money for you. You see, it's got to be very expensive for the 281 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.519 reason that I believe you're delivery, and that's from a perspective. Is Actually 282 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.549 is Brent and and we started that really three years ago to get that sort 283 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:19.309 of feedback, and they keep on going since and but yeah, it's it's 284 00:18:19.309 --> 00:18:22.670 a lot of work to be done. It's a lot for us. It's 285 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:26.990 community building. We're going to be walking on our website this year as well 286 00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:29.740 because, you know, we've done a lot of things that are offline, 287 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.099 if you will, that are not really as you mentioned with your example, 288 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:36.140 with staples, you can't find them online. So we need to be more 289 00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:40.099 consistent. So we do know those things, but that twenty percent seems fail 290 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:42.490 and I think you you, you, you ready the NAT on Tetz. 291 00:18:42.529 --> 00:18:47.930 That twin so much. If anyone a fologians would like to carry on the 292 00:18:48.009 --> 00:18:51.890 conversation, Weise you out of the pot. Get a note of decision today 293 00:18:51.930 --> 00:18:55.009 with what's the best way to get in touch with you? Yeah, sure, 294 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:57.559 so people can find me on linkedin or shoot me an email. My 295 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:03.160 linkedin is forward slash MC Fleming. Feel free to pick me there. I 296 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.759 love talking about this kind of stuff. Alternatively, if you want to reach 297 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.390 me up by email, you can hit me up at Matthew Dot Fleming, 298 00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:14.789 with one M at load smartcom. That's one enough food where. Thank you 299 00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:18.109 very much for you insight today, met it was a great pleasure to have 300 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:19.430 you on the show. It was a pleasure to be on. Thanks for 301 00:19:19.470 --> 00:19:26.420 having me. operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. 302 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:33.140 While the traditional concepts of building and managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed 303 00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:37.180 for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of focus agility and scale 304 00:19:37.569 --> 00:19:45.089 required in today's fast and complex world of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics 305 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:51.250 can help your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be 306 00:19:51.450 --> 00:19:56.119 tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to 307 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.640 the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. 308 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:00.799 Until next time.