8: Building a Startup Commercial Team in EMEA for International Vendors w/ Matthew Smith

August 15, 2018 00:30:22
8: Building a Startup Commercial Team in EMEA for International Vendors w/ Matthew Smith
B2B Revenue Acceleration
8: Building a Startup Commercial Team in EMEA for International Vendors w/ Matthew Smith

Aug 15 2018 | 00:30:22

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Show Notes

Startups often underestimate moving to new markets.

This is especially true in the EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa) region.

Matthew Smith is a Principal Consultant at Acumin Consulting where he just recently celebrated his 5 year anniversary. Matt has been in the cyber-security recruitment  space for 8 years, and he has seen the industry change and evolve during that time.

Acumin is celebrating their 20th anniversary, and they work within the consulting world to help offer a full range of cybersecurity consulting solutions, from system integrators all the way down to penetration testing companies. Matt is on the vendor team and he specializes mostly in director level searches.

We sat down with Matt to talk about how market timing and cultural differences affect internationally expanding startups, the importance of your first sales hire in the EMEA region, and the roadmap to success.

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:05.120 Doing Business. In your report, international can often be a completely different model 2 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:10.830 and way of working then it is over in the US. You're listening to 3 00:00:10.990 --> 00:00:16.750 BB revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executives stay on the cutting edge 4 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:22.660 of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, 5 00:00:22.899 --> 00:00:26.699 welcome to be to be a reverie acceleration. My name is any amoutier 6 00:00:26.980 --> 00:00:30.739 and I am here today with Matt Smith from Acamin. How are you today, 7 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:35.850 Matt? Very well and very warm today. Ideas really warm. That's 8 00:00:35.969 --> 00:00:40.289 true, though, but today we wanted to invade you to the podcast to 9 00:00:40.369 --> 00:00:47.250 discuss about building up a start commercial team in the A EMEA market for international 10 00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:51.880 vendors, and I know it's your vendors will probably most of them the US 11 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.560 base, some of some of them Israeli based, some Mosl from other countries 12 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.799 based. All about coming to thenea markets. But before we get started, 13 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.280 can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and and and Acumen, 14 00:01:03.349 --> 00:01:07.549 which is the company actual represents? Yeah, so I've been with that came 15 00:01:07.629 --> 00:01:12.189 in it was my five years anniversary actually at the beginning of last week. 16 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:17.150 So I've been with acumen for five years, but I've been within the cyber 17 00:01:17.189 --> 00:01:23.659 security recruitment world for eight years. So obviously I've seeing the industry change and 18 00:01:23.739 --> 00:01:26.579 evolved and and I'm seeing a number of views and, as you say, 19 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:30.739 is really in European client you know, enter builderscales across Europe, some of 20 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.930 the dots, some of the companies do it very well, others don't. 21 00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.170 But it's a bit of background. I work for ACUM IN CONSULTING and we're 22 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:45.489 a cyber security specific recruitment business. We have actually been going I I certainly 23 00:01:45.489 --> 00:01:48.000 haven't been here for that long, but we were set up. It was 24 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.560 our twenty anniversary this year. It Info Sap and we we covered the full 25 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:56.680 paradigm of security. So we have a team that covers end users. So 26 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:01.390 we do a lot of technical recruitment, IE, see those security architect security 27 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:07.110 managers for very large end user associations. So back for these are your those 28 00:02:07.150 --> 00:02:12.710 sort of companies. We have a team that covers system integrators and consultancies. 29 00:02:12.830 --> 00:02:16.139 So we've placed partners with the L Kpmg, you know, some of the 30 00:02:16.460 --> 00:02:21.539 traditional big four consulting firms, and that's all the way down to pet. 31 00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:24.819 Working with pet. We are penetration testing companies or whatever, the kind of 32 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:30.050 flavor of the days and the consultancy market and also, I said, on 33 00:02:30.169 --> 00:02:35.050 the vendor team. So I lead a lot of our VP or director level 34 00:02:35.169 --> 00:02:40.729 searchers, but also specialize in helping startups and to build and scale throughout a 35 00:02:40.810 --> 00:02:45.520 mere yes, so that's that's like Kim. That's that's really useful to thank 36 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.080 you very much, math. So just today traight into the big off today. 37 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.879 We know that there is many a us. So I stray the on 38 00:02:53.159 --> 00:03:00.030 startups general that they're not that's expending in the European market and sitting up their 39 00:03:00.310 --> 00:03:06.110 initial cells to more. I think that commercial elements traits obviously very important for 40 00:03:06.229 --> 00:03:08.990 them. So from your experience, would you believe at the key elements for 41 00:03:09.189 --> 00:03:17.500 successful expansion? So I think one of the key things to begin with is 42 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:24.139 market timing and I think if you look at certain areas the the CAS be 43 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:30.569 space with within cyber so so general cloud security. The normal bear is I 44 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:36.370 think the European market is probably generally twelve to eighteen months behind the US market, 45 00:03:36.569 --> 00:03:40.439 and then a pack is normally six months or so behind the European market 46 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:44.800 in terms of adoption. But I think one of the real key things that 47 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:51.560 vendors have to fully qualify is the appetite and opportunity for their product in the 48 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.400 market right at that time, because I'm sure we will cover some of these 49 00:03:54.439 --> 00:04:00.590 points further in the conversation. But often us, that particularly US vendors, 50 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:06.270 those of which have very little or traditionally have done very little work internationally or 51 00:04:06.389 --> 00:04:15.099 in Europe, often vastly over estimate a not so much the opportunity for more 52 00:04:15.219 --> 00:04:19.420 so what's achievable and what the market is actually buying. And also, and 53 00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:25.810 I think also often, they sometimes count your is just another sales region in 54 00:04:25.889 --> 00:04:29.769 the US and, as I'm sure we can cover lighter on doing business in 55 00:04:29.889 --> 00:04:33.730 your report, international can often be a completely unfferent model and way of working. 56 00:04:33.769 --> 00:04:35.850 Then it is, I really us. So I say one of the 57 00:04:35.970 --> 00:04:41.879 first points is is market readiness? Yes, and I think you are right. 58 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:46.879 Work through the podcasts recently with with a company called CBG and with a 59 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:50.360 CEO, with a gentleman called Jamie Murphy, and we spoke about one of 60 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:57.029 their service which is a service called pulse, and the purpose of that service 61 00:04:57.069 --> 00:05:00.149 is to actually, I guess, address at first point that you mentioned that 62 00:05:00.189 --> 00:05:05.110 that market readiness and taking the product, the solution, the conversation to the 63 00:05:05.189 --> 00:05:10.660 end user, student channel and see how people react to it, to see 64 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.980 the appetites, and I agree with you. I mean if there is no 65 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:17.740 market was the point. And also agree with that other region. Obviously I'm 66 00:05:17.860 --> 00:05:23.129 French, you're British and I'm pretty sure that our way of buying things are 67 00:05:23.569 --> 00:05:27.610 culturally. I mean, I've been living in England long enough now to be 68 00:05:27.689 --> 00:05:31.209 a bit more with the British culture, but I remember when I first arrived 69 00:05:31.529 --> 00:05:35.680 in the UK realizing that things are very different, the way people do business. 70 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:40.600 The world was expecting things to open, despite the fact I was just 71 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.279 living across the across the sea from you guys. It was a big, 72 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.759 big shock for me. I think it's something that some days vendors would appreciate 73 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.589 the deep culture difference. First I was going to say are you French? 74 00:05:51.790 --> 00:05:55.829 I hadn't noticed then. I know, I know, I'm trying to Promin 75 00:05:55.910 --> 00:06:00.389 this yeah, yeah, but now I mean I think if we go back 76 00:06:00.470 --> 00:06:03.269 to I mean even if you don't look at clouds security, you look at 77 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:10.459 general adoption of cloud services globally and I think definitely not. You know, 78 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:16.620 definitely one of one of the first failures or reasons why international expansion can cannot 79 00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:20.850 go wrong is absolutely looking at the European market. And I think there's kind 80 00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:25.290 of to there's two or three things. Is that you have the difference in 81 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:30.329 how you do business in the US to expanding international. But then quite clearly, 82 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:32.680 as you set, when you actually look into Europe, and I think 83 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:38.560 again one of the generalizations is that often to US venders can look at Europe 84 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.600 has just one region, when when you actually look into it and as you 85 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:47.110 correctly state with your own personal experiences, there's a widely different way of doing 86 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:53.870 business in the UK to Germany, to France, or southern Europe to northern 87 00:06:53.990 --> 00:06:57.350 Europe, to Ben a look to the Middle East, and I think that, 88 00:06:57.709 --> 00:07:01.740 you know what a treating all of those regions exactly the same can often 89 00:07:02.060 --> 00:07:05.939 prove, you know, very difficult because I think, particularly if you look 90 00:07:06.139 --> 00:07:10.139 just high level, that you know the way that you do the business in 91 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:14.420 Middle East is that they're very much it can be difficult to and a trait 92 00:07:15.379 --> 00:07:17.490 and when new business in the Middle East, however, when you have very 93 00:07:17.529 --> 00:07:21.970 strong relationships with partners, with customers in the region, you really take on 94 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:28.050 more of a trusted adviser piece, whereas if you flip back to, I 95 00:07:28.250 --> 00:07:32.519 imagine, probably from I mean, I think in terms of being one of 96 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:38.319 the potential biggest markets, but also, by quite some distance, one of 97 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:42.720 the most difficult to do business and would be Germany because if you look there 98 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:48.790 obviously a huge economy. There's enormous potential market, but there's enormous market potential 99 00:07:48.910 --> 00:07:55.389 in the region. How are there anybody that has recruited soul to operation in 100 00:07:55.509 --> 00:07:59.379 Germany will say that it is a very you know, it's a very different 101 00:07:59.819 --> 00:08:03.660 and all be kind of unique culture even within Europe. And you know some 102 00:08:03.819 --> 00:08:09.980 of the stereotypes about Germans, ie being you know, often they are one 103 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:13.410 of the one of the last markets to adopt new technologies. So as a 104 00:08:13.490 --> 00:08:20.009 result it can be very difficult to hire or to sell new technologies over there 105 00:08:20.050 --> 00:08:24.329 because generally they are one of the later adoptors. And if we go back 106 00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:28.439 to the point about cloud and about cloud security in particular, the German market 107 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:35.919 have huge concerns about privacy. They have enormous concerns of where data restored and 108 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.960 one of the key pieces that a lot of the successful, a lot of 109 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:46.629 the successful US vendors that come over and particularly where data well, where there 110 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:48.590 a cloud vendor a sense, where data has to be stored in the cloud 111 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:52.750 and sent back to the US, often there will be a number of these 112 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:56.379 vendors that will have to physically build data centers in Germany to be able to 113 00:08:56.500 --> 00:09:01.820 get around, to be able to get around some of the kind of restrictions 114 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:05.179 and and some of the reasons why cloud has been slow to adopt, particularly 115 00:09:05.259 --> 00:09:09.580 in Germany. But I think if again, if you use juring as an 116 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:13.970 example, so much about a successful international expansion, and it goes back to 117 00:09:15.450 --> 00:09:18.850 the key bit is it's firstly hiring the right person, and I think so 118 00:09:20.049 --> 00:09:22.850 much of it. If you get a US vendor, that's the startup that 119 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:28.000 hasn't there any business in Europe before. It's very important that a they higher 120 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.639 the right person, and we can come on later on to what characteristic is 121 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.360 that person has. One of the real key parts, and I say this 122 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.870 during a lot of readership searches, a real undervalue, is the ability to 123 00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:45.750 manage an influence or so obviously you get first people on the ground of VP 124 00:09:45.909 --> 00:09:50.230 of Europs who are used to building and leading teams beneath them. But so 125 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:52.259 much of it, surely, when you're going into a new region, is 126 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:58.220 about managing the expectations of the US vender. And I think so often, 127 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:03.620 and it goes back again by the interlinking with the point about market. You 128 00:10:03.740 --> 00:10:09.690 know, market adoption and market potential is having a European leader in place that 129 00:10:09.889 --> 00:10:13.570 can successfully manage expectations of the US in terms of what's actually going to be 130 00:10:13.649 --> 00:10:18.370 achievable. And I think sometimes US venders can, or any vendors can, 131 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:22.559 be bold in by a sales guy or girl who, throughout the interview process, 132 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:28.759 may say they could scale or achieve thirty, forty percent higher revenues that 133 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.159 some of the other people in the processor. But I think it's really about 134 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.830 not just taking the person who commits the generating the bigger number, for taking 135 00:10:35.909 --> 00:10:43.070 somebody who's been through the journey before it can actually give realistic numbers in terms 136 00:10:43.110 --> 00:10:46.350 of what they can achieve. And I think so much been able to aid 137 00:10:46.429 --> 00:10:50.860 manage expectations above and also managing a team below really helps the risk it because 138 00:10:50.980 --> 00:10:54.259 often so many venders, because I think if you know, if you commit 139 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:58.659 a number, as you well know, venders take that as written, implord 140 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.659 that that's what's going to be achieved, and I definitely think having somebody that 141 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:07.210 has got the level of seniority to be able to manage upwards, but also 142 00:11:07.690 --> 00:11:09.889 still has enough kind of minds in the fire and feet on the street to 143 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:13.929 be able to go out and sell this critical yes, yeah, absolutely so. 144 00:11:13.169 --> 00:11:16.889 If I was summarize a little bit a few things here, fundamental key 145 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:22.799 elements for six suspension. Number one is a taming. Is The market tready 146 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.240 for you? Number two would be about umbracing and understanding the culture deferences and 147 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:33.350 that they to just Ripley Gate, whatever was a success in trial or or 148 00:11:33.509 --> 00:11:39.269 in North America and Latin what you actually from and with your local market. 149 00:11:39.070 --> 00:11:43.830 And number three around, I guess, that first person on the ground, 150 00:11:43.309 --> 00:11:46.580 and I think there is I also want to put a number four points, 151 00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:52.340 which is not being too naive or over enthusiastic, and I think the real 152 00:11:52.700 --> 00:11:56.740 stations, because I think you're right, this expectation would also come from that 153 00:11:56.860 --> 00:12:00.259 first person that you are, but you will almost come from the vendors. 154 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:03.529 These two needs to agree on what is realistic and obviously put themselves from under 155 00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:07.769 a bit of pressure is good, but you want to make sure that if 156 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.250 you work with someone who's already done it in the past, you've got expectation 157 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:15.330 from a board or from investors or from a from a company. See Your 158 00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:18.360 perspective. It's about matching them to make sure there is a planet can actually 159 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.919 be achieved. That the four points that you you wanted to put across. 160 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.000 Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely, because I think one, I 161 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.590 mean I definitely think if you look, there's that. I mean I'm not 162 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:33.789 sure if we get, if you're mis coverless hour or crimelessie order the conversation. 163 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:39.669 But again, so much is critical about that first tire and there's a 164 00:12:39.710 --> 00:12:43.190 lot of character respects. But that's that. You my next question, Matt 165 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:45.500 So, about I'm glad you you bring it back, ever, because that's 166 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:48.860 a fantastic bridge question, and then maybe I will appear with this what I'm 167 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:54.220 ath to tire, but we aving a ton of conversation which individual are looking 168 00:12:54.259 --> 00:12:58.610 at recruitine that first person on the ground. I think you are at this 169 00:12:58.850 --> 00:13:03.049 button when you say this is this is critzy called that those person will drive, 170 00:13:03.210 --> 00:13:07.409 that first person will attract. The first person is almost like a Swiss 171 00:13:07.450 --> 00:13:13.159 army knife. Someone would needs to be a well different ads but also would 172 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.000 be able to put up their sleeve to get the job done if needs be, 173 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.919 as well as recruiting, selling, getting involved with technical issues, all 174 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.639 that sort of great stuff. So, based on your experience and when it 175 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.350 comes to you supportting your clients, you know they don't he find that first 176 00:13:28.429 --> 00:13:33.309 person on the ground. What are the key skills that you are looking after, 177 00:13:33.350 --> 00:13:37.669 or what are the key skills that you think vendors should be looking after? 178 00:13:37.269 --> 00:13:43.139 So I mean I think you know generally if you're the first higher in. 179 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:48.059 And again it's just for the purposes of this conversation, let's keep using 180 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:52.500 a US vendor as an example. But obviously it's slightly different if it's you're 181 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:56.929 repaying or Israeli. But if you're set it up that a region, if 182 00:13:56.970 --> 00:14:01.450 you're the first hire in a region anywhere. But let's say you're it's obviously 183 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:07.169 very key. I mean because often vendors make the mistake as hiring, you 184 00:14:07.289 --> 00:14:13.759 know, a sales leader that comes from a more establish vendor, even within 185 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.679 that space. So I guess if we use end point security as an example, 186 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.559 you know that it isn't it. We those coming over the last few 187 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:28.470 years, marketing particular, and another yeahstment, lots of things from DC's as 188 00:14:28.509 --> 00:14:31.389 one. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, but I think on both 189 00:14:31.509 --> 00:14:35.629 points. So if you have, I guess, the more old school endpoint 190 00:14:35.710 --> 00:14:39.700 vendors, Sociam Ante, McAfee, trem micro, those sort of companies that 191 00:14:39.820 --> 00:14:45.740 are all public companies, you know, employee, thousands of people, generated 192 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:50.220 hundreds and hundreds of millions of revenue. You then have a lot of these 193 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:54.889 new endpoint vendors that would look to display some of the larger players. So, 194 00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:58.169 as a result, you would think it would be natural to go and 195 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:01.809 head to hunt for the first salesperson in the region, to go in ahead, 196 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:07.200 somebody very senior from those organ from that from the more legacy organizations. 197 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.399 And without a shadow of a doubt, there's a lot of very capable people 198 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:16.279 in larger organizations. However, if you look at it holistically, somebody who's 199 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.320 ahead of Europe or in a senior sales position for a company that might have 200 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.269 four, five, six, seven, hundred people in Europe, firstly, 201 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:28.350 they'll be very they're very likely to be completely removed from the coal face, 202 00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:31.710 so they're not going to be on the street selling. They're not going to 203 00:15:31.750 --> 00:15:33.990 be on the phone to customers all day every day. They may well have 204 00:15:35.590 --> 00:15:39.740 the infrastructure and of managed very very large ps, very very large pnls and 205 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:45.580 if ex having have a lot of very good experience in terms of senior people 206 00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.580 leadership. However, whether then the first comes over, and I think actually 207 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.610 separating the two, you made a good point that probably two years ago, 208 00:15:52.690 --> 00:15:58.929 against focusing on the endpoint market, there was a number of vendors or with 209 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:03.559 hundreds of millions of funding. So when they first come to your they were 210 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:08.480 typically higher a fairly senior VP of eup, but that would be somebody that 211 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:14.480 has worked for multiple startups before, somebody that's been through the journey, that 212 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.669 understands what it takes to what it takes to be successful. But I think 213 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:22.950 more so if you fast forward it, because I think if you look at 214 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.269 some of those enders I just mentioned, they were coming over to your they 215 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:30.070 were haring, you know, very big hitting vp of europs who would then 216 00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:34.379 hire senior Presales, senior marketing in the UK then often look to go and 217 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:40.059 put feet on the street very quickly in all of the regions and whilst you 218 00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:45.899 still absolutely need people who have worked up in a startup environment, more so 219 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:49.809 now, two years later, you're seeing a real reduction in the number of 220 00:16:49.929 --> 00:16:56.129 vendors that have such significant funding. So as it results, even though both 221 00:16:56.210 --> 00:17:00.409 of those types are you ones with two and million or ones with ten million, 222 00:17:00.850 --> 00:17:03.799 both need to hire people that have the start up DNA, in the 223 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:07.880 startup characteristics. More so two years later, after a lot of these companies 224 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.240 come over, the first person on the ground needs somebody that is able to 225 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.519 go out, you know, and boot doors open, so to speak, 226 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.309 you know, when the very first few accounts, because often somebody from a 227 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:22.589 much larger business, he might not eat, you know, it might have 228 00:17:22.670 --> 00:17:26.109 been ten or fifteen years since they made fifty, sixty, seventy calls a 229 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:33.900 day. And I think really getting somebody that understands what is needed and somebody 230 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:37.779 really that has a proven track record of success working in a very similar environment. 231 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:42.339 I'm really, really key with little resource or budget, and that's why 232 00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:48.289 I think, particularly from a resource perspect and generally, and obviously this is 233 00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:52.730 this isn't all encumbass in but generally the view is the people that have worked 234 00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:56.089 for very large vendors, even if they're in the same space will not be 235 00:17:56.329 --> 00:18:02.319 used to operating with very little support, very little infrastructure and all that sort 236 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.799 of thing. So I think so much of it relies on hiring people who've 237 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:11.400 essentially built businesses from scratched before and understand everything that goes with that. But, 238 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.789 Sholie Maddy, must be a shortage of the people. At some points 239 00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:21.589 I have there's a very there's very much shortage of people, because there is 240 00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:23.509 there is more companies coming in a tree, people who've done it, and 241 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:27.339 you would expect to people who have done it and we've done it well, 242 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:30.579 you probably stay in job. It was with our you know. I guess 243 00:18:30.579 --> 00:18:34.339 you know in a way, so he's own. Guess I'm about to ask 244 00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:38.059 you a question about how you find us people, but as can you maybe 245 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:44.569 a less unless races characteristic. Are you looking at someone was been a very 246 00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:48.089 good Sir Spellson, that wants to take more respect on stabilities? Are you 247 00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:52.130 looking at some as you mentioned as a most been very, very senior, 248 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:56.160 but he's looking at getting more for an exciting startup job and you know, 249 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.000 order be walking much more closer to the action. It's a truck. He's 250 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.200 there. A profile is now he's just he's do do it with feelings or 251 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:07.640 do you do it a how would you find the right profile and what are 252 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.430 the Greaterias that you think? I'm important to well, from a from people 253 00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:15.309 best pick teeth, from a human, skilled perspective. So I mean from 254 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.829 my perspective, you know, as you know, but sensely the viewers don't. 255 00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:23.420 I mean, I do kind of specialize in helping start ups come over. 256 00:19:23.619 --> 00:19:30.059 So as a result having ran multiple VP of Europe searchers, having worked 257 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:34.099 with many of the high profile startups that have come over, I personally have 258 00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:40.529 a very good network of what you were classes, start up guys and girls. 259 00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:44.849 But you know, you're absolutely right that so much of it depends on 260 00:19:45.089 --> 00:19:48.009 I think, touching on some of the point of what we raised it in 261 00:19:48.049 --> 00:19:52.200 question one is that it's managing the expectation of the vendor because so, for 262 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.880 example, if you have a say, you know, or if it's safer 263 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.240 to keep these in cloud security. If I'm working with a series a ten 264 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:06.319 or fifteen million backs cloud security vender, they might be at fifty or sixty 265 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:11.269 people globally. You know, generally when company start looking Europe or international expansion, 266 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:17.269 is often because they might have of global clients. So you know some 267 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:21.349 of the very large finance houses, for example, that they've sold into in 268 00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:26.660 the US been successful and they've essentially been dragged into Europe or international because some 269 00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:30.460 of their global clients are saying, well, Hey, can we buy the 270 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:33.099 solution over here? But as a result, if you've got to come to 271 00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:37.289 it's only fifty sixty people globally, ten or fifty million dollars investment. What 272 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:44.490 they need generally is generally a very high performing individual contributor that wants to make 273 00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:48.490 a step up, somebody that's worked in a very early stage company before, 274 00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.519 maybe has been sales higher two, three, four or five, has been 275 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.599 really successful, has gone through the journey and now wants to take the step 276 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.319 up and move into being that first hire in the region. And I think 277 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.750 if you look at some of the companies that we spoken about that have huge 278 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:08.269 funding rounds, often they will probably go for the next level, so a 279 00:21:08.309 --> 00:21:15.230 VP of Europe that might have done two or three successful IPOs or acquisitions, 280 00:21:15.710 --> 00:21:19.019 somebody that's built a business from zero people to thirty or forty. But I 281 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:23.539 think it's kind of interesting when you look at the startups in general because whenever 282 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:27.859 I'm talking to candidates and clients and and I'm just using the numbers I speak 283 00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:33.250 about here just for illustration purposes, but if you look at revenues from a 284 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:37.410 start up perspective in Europe, I always say you kind of have three stages. 285 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:41.930 So you might have zero to five million or zero to ten million, 286 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:47.720 dependent on deal size, deal values, investment in the region excep what you 287 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.839 might have one person that takes them from zero to ten as a sales lead. 288 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.359 That person is your typical kind of regional sales director that's hungry, that's 289 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.240 aggressive, that will be able to, you know, BOOT doors down open 290 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:04.269 win a lot of the Marquis early customers because, as you know, it 291 00:22:04.390 --> 00:22:10.589 can be extremely difficult to win those first few reference customers. They then build 292 00:22:10.630 --> 00:22:15.670 the business. They would either lead the business themselves and hire a pre sales 293 00:22:15.710 --> 00:22:18.859 person, a market in person, EXC and then start expanding into the other 294 00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:25.180 territories which might be that first band a looks northern Europe or or however they 295 00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:27.180 want to run it. But then once they've got to that scale, is 296 00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:32.690 then at once they've got to that size, is then important to potensally bring 297 00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:37.210 it a more kind of commercially focused leader, and the reasons that I say 298 00:22:37.329 --> 00:22:41.410 that is often the first higher you make from a sales perspective. You know 299 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:45.200 they're hungry, that they'll boot the doors down. However, they don't always 300 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:49.240 have the processes and procedures that when you start getting to five or ten million 301 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.119 revenue, that have to be put in because obviously, when you're only doing 302 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.000 a small number of deals, you don't always necessarily have, you know, 303 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.990 the best poc, you know the POC's being run the best way or even 304 00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:07.509 or whatever. He's tenders. Yeah, exactly, I'm basically yeah exactly. 305 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.869 And then I think you would generally get someone that would then come in and 306 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:15.460 take them maybe from ten to thirty or forty million, and that would be 307 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.380 stage two. And then often you get somebody who would come in maybe a 308 00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:25.259 year or two before IPO and with or IPO or acquisition and take them through 309 00:23:25.299 --> 00:23:27.490 the rest of that journey. So I think often what you find is that 310 00:23:27.529 --> 00:23:33.250 they're a right people for right times at venders and you do get some people 311 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:37.730 who will be vp of a mare, will be the first sales higher in 312 00:23:37.849 --> 00:23:41.839 Europe and may still be there three years later when the fifty people however, 313 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:48.960 they're fairly unusual because when companies have huge investment they have to grow incredibly quickly. 314 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.519 So, as a result, that's why I mean, I think particularly 315 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.910 because there's been a lot of investment and there's been so many new companies coming 316 00:23:55.950 --> 00:24:00.150 over to market. In terms of that first sales, higher or very early 317 00:24:00.230 --> 00:24:03.750 stage hires, whether it's sales, pre sales whatever. I think your average 318 00:24:03.869 --> 00:24:07.630 ten year of a sales director or VP of Europe at the moment it's probably 319 00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:11.779 about eighteen months, two years. Yeah. So, as you can see, 320 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:15.380 companies go through a lot of a lot of changes. So as a 321 00:24:15.460 --> 00:24:19.099 result, your average tenure of someone that these organizations is fairly sure and I 322 00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:22.420 think one of the natural things is, well, what can we do to 323 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:26.009 try and get more longevity? And I think a lot of it does come 324 00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:30.490 back to a the whoever is in charge of the region being able to manage 325 00:24:30.529 --> 00:24:34.089 and build the region out underneath them. But again it goes back to manage 326 00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:40.400 the expectations of the vendor above the managing the expectations of the more senior commercial 327 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:44.000 guys over in the US. So but I definitely think due to the huge 328 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.200 amount of investment, the the industry as a whole has become very short term 329 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.640 and I think so much of that is an apologies of them going out off 330 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.390 on a tangent sign. It's just for Nice, because I think really, 331 00:24:56.470 --> 00:24:59.509 the way I look at it, that when I very first started working in 332 00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:03.269 cyber security seven or eight years ago, the perception of cyber was that it 333 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:08.619 was a bit of a nerdy tie area of the IT Department. People kind 334 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:14.740 of had half an understanding of what it is and what it was therefore, 335 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:18.059 but he wasn't really a big thing. I mean, it's set along development 336 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.019 in terms of, you know, the people that you keep rocks under the 337 00:25:21.099 --> 00:25:23.650 stairs that just do coding and you bring them out for food and light a 338 00:25:23.730 --> 00:25:27.769 case. Then I think so much if you look at even the past twenty 339 00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:33.609 four month you've gone from this perception of security being a slightly nerdy, technical 340 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:38.200 small part of the it depart all of a sudden to influencing the US election, 341 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.160 you know, being that you know this huge geopolitical factors. You know 342 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:48.079 cyber wars, cyber warfare's being used countries the country and I think in this 343 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.230 year's a hole has become a normal you know, so much more high profile 344 00:25:51.349 --> 00:25:53.829 than it used to. And I think one and it's kind of a benefit 345 00:25:53.910 --> 00:25:57.470 and a negative, is the fact that traditional, when I first started looking 346 00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:02.109 at startups, you used to focus on looking who some of them, of 347 00:26:02.190 --> 00:26:07.259 the wellknown VC's, what companies? Aig funded so Andreas, and horrow it's 348 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:11.220 Besima venture partners, the more traditional VC's. But I think so much now, 349 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:18.339 because cyber is so high profile, you've seen an absolute avalanche of investment 350 00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:22.930 from outside of the kind of core traditional BC's, which is no bad thing. 351 00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:26.049 But I think there's a result if you're working in an industry where seven 352 00:26:26.089 --> 00:26:30.369 or eight of the new entrance to market. Again, if we use endpoint 353 00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:33.400 as an example, eighteen months, two years ago, if you're a startup 354 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:38.440 sales guy or sales girl or see or marketing lead, if you've got six 355 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.240 or seven vendors, all with these actually the same funding, all with very 356 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.920 similar products, how are you expected to make a guess on who's going to 357 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.990 be successful or not? And I think there's been because there's been so much 358 00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:56.150 investment, the industry as a whole is inflated with too many venders and, 359 00:26:56.269 --> 00:27:00.829 dare I say it, too many recruiters and too many lead generation company. 360 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:04.779 There's too much pr there's a million events and I think the industry at the 361 00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:08.380 moment it's just a bit bloated and one of the things is that you are 362 00:27:08.420 --> 00:27:14.619 seeing and you will continue to see is hopefully, firstly an increase in IPOs 363 00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:18.130 because obviously that means a company has gone public can be successful. But as 364 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:23.210 a result you are also going to see a continued number of startups being acquired 365 00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:27.769 by some of them more larger legacy vendors that we've spoken about before because general 366 00:27:27.890 --> 00:27:34.440 really large legacy of and the struggle to innovate and often siscoing as example, 367 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:40.839 often going a big mnating to buy a large security capacity and obviously in the 368 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.430 company gets required it. It's a great thing, particularly for the early stage 369 00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:47.990 people. But you know, if you look, if you've got compli's got 370 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:51.430 a hundred million funding and to get is a gets a quiet to seven hundred 371 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:55.829 million and that's obviously a superb result. However, if you look at a 372 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.579 company that's got a hundred million funding at the end of getting acquired for eighteen 373 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:03.180 million, then you don't have necessarily have to be the most forward thinking finance 374 00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:08.019 analyst to understand that that's not a great resource. Yeah, absolutely, that 375 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:14.130 was very full. My one was associated with was a very pushing a person, 376 00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:15.930 or the image of a very pushing eight person with a funny accent. 377 00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:21.170 I'm glad I found you today because your guess you are like me. It's 378 00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:23.529 fun passing, but you know, I really appreciate all the time you gave 379 00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:29.599 us to them in some of the insight. Well, probably putting even further 380 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.960 all expecting from you today, but I like the way you speak about you're 381 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.119 on the ledge industry. Is Absolutely is beautiful to listen to. Now, 382 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.789 if any of our listener would like to get in touch with you and would 383 00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:45.390 like to take conversation of Lane whise, you find your reason, because brain 384 00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:48.470 maybe look at what your company could do for them or whatever. What is 385 00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:52.589 the best way to get old of my Smith? Well, they can either 386 00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:56.819 reach out to me. I mean it reads out to me on Linkedin. 387 00:28:56.019 --> 00:29:00.619 It's probably the easiest. Why? It's Matthew Smith at CAM IN CONSULTING WAI. 388 00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:03.339 I'm obviously on linked it a lot, but if anyone wants to reach 389 00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:08.259 out directly, my email addresses and Smith at at Camencom don't UK, but 390 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:14.130 it's all on my linkedin profile. So if anybody has any further questions and 391 00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:18.089 queries, yeah, please, please, reach out on that's one the for 392 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:22.049 myth. Thank you again for your time today. Let's off inside really android 393 00:29:22.089 --> 00:29:27.720 a conversation and we'll make sure that we reinvade you very soon too. Falls 394 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:32.480 all done some of the conversation with today on some of the key Topa you 395 00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:34.160 touchdowns. So thank you very much for your time. At no problem. 396 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:41.390 Look forward to the next one. operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation 397 00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:47.750 for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts of building and managing inside sales 398 00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:52.509 teams inhouse has existed for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of 399 00:29:52.630 --> 00:29:59.299 focus, agility and scale required in today's fast and complex world of enterprise technology 400 00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:04.819 sales. See How operatics can help your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. 401 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:11.049 You've been listening to be tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss 402 00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:15.170 an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you 403 00:30:15.210 --> 00:30:17.210 so much for listening. Until next time,

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