Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Doing Business. In your report,
international can often be a completely different model
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and way of working then it is
over in the US. You're listening to
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BB revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated
helping software executives stay on the cutting edge
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of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi,
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welcome to be to be a reverie
acceleration. My name is any amoutier
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and I am here today with Matt
Smith from Acamin. How are you today,
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Matt? Very well and very warm
today. Ideas really warm. That's
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true, though, but today we
wanted to invade you to the podcast to
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discuss about building up a start commercial
team in the A EMEA market for international
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vendors, and I know it's your
vendors will probably most of them the US
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base, some of some of them
Israeli based, some Mosl from other countries
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based. All about coming to thenea
markets. But before we get started,
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can you tell us a little bit
more about yourself and and and Acumen,
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which is the company actual represents?
Yeah, so I've been with that came
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in it was my five years anniversary
actually at the beginning of last week.
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So I've been with acumen for five
years, but I've been within the cyber
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security recruitment world for eight years.
So obviously I've seeing the industry change and
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evolved and and I'm seeing a number
of views and, as you say,
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is really in European client you know, enter builderscales across Europe, some of
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the dots, some of the companies
do it very well, others don't.
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But it's a bit of background.
I work for ACUM IN CONSULTING and we're
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a cyber security specific recruitment business.
We have actually been going I I certainly
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haven't been here for that long,
but we were set up. It was
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our twenty anniversary this year. It
Info Sap and we we covered the full
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paradigm of security. So we have
a team that covers end users. So
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we do a lot of technical recruitment, IE, see those security architect security
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managers for very large end user associations. So back for these are your those
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sort of companies. We have a
team that covers system integrators and consultancies.
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So we've placed partners with the L
Kpmg, you know, some of the
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traditional big four consulting firms, and
that's all the way down to pet.
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Working with pet. We are penetration
testing companies or whatever, the kind of
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flavor of the days and the consultancy
market and also, I said, on
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the vendor team. So I lead
a lot of our VP or director level
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searchers, but also specialize in helping
startups and to build and scale throughout a
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mere yes, so that's that's like
Kim. That's that's really useful to thank
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you very much, math. So
just today traight into the big off today.
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We know that there is many a
us. So I stray the on
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startups general that they're not that's expending
in the European market and sitting up their
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initial cells to more. I think
that commercial elements traits obviously very important for
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them. So from your experience,
would you believe at the key elements for
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successful expansion? So I think one
of the key things to begin with is
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market timing and I think if you
look at certain areas the the CAS be
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space with within cyber so so general
cloud security. The normal bear is I
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think the European market is probably generally
twelve to eighteen months behind the US market,
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and then a pack is normally six
months or so behind the European market
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in terms of adoption. But I
think one of the real key things that
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vendors have to fully qualify is the
appetite and opportunity for their product in the
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market right at that time, because
I'm sure we will cover some of these
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points further in the conversation. But
often us, that particularly US vendors,
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those of which have very little or
traditionally have done very little work internationally or
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in Europe, often vastly over estimate
a not so much the opportunity for more
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so what's achievable and what the market
is actually buying. And also, and
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I think also often, they sometimes
count your is just another sales region in
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the US and, as I'm sure
we can cover lighter on doing business in
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your report, international can often be
a completely unfferent model and way of working.
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Then it is, I really us. So I say one of the
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first points is is market readiness?
Yes, and I think you are right.
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Work through the podcasts recently with with
a company called CBG and with a
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CEO, with a gentleman called Jamie
Murphy, and we spoke about one of
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their service which is a service called
pulse, and the purpose of that service
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is to actually, I guess,
address at first point that you mentioned that
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that market readiness and taking the product, the solution, the conversation to the
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end user, student channel and see
how people react to it, to see
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the appetites, and I agree with
you. I mean if there is no
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market was the point. And also
agree with that other region. Obviously I'm
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French, you're British and I'm pretty
sure that our way of buying things are
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culturally. I mean, I've been
living in England long enough now to be
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a bit more with the British culture, but I remember when I first arrived
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in the UK realizing that things are
very different, the way people do business.
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The world was expecting things to open, despite the fact I was just
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living across the across the sea from
you guys. It was a big,
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big shock for me. I think
it's something that some days vendors would appreciate
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the deep culture difference. First I
was going to say are you French?
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I hadn't noticed then. I know, I know, I'm trying to Promin
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this yeah, yeah, but now
I mean I think if we go back
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to I mean even if you don't
look at clouds security, you look at
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general adoption of cloud services globally and
I think definitely not. You know,
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definitely one of one of the first
failures or reasons why international expansion can cannot
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go wrong is absolutely looking at the
European market. And I think there's kind
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of to there's two or three things. Is that you have the difference in
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how you do business in the US
to expanding international. But then quite clearly,
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as you set, when you actually
look into Europe, and I think
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again one of the generalizations is that
often to US venders can look at Europe
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has just one region, when when
you actually look into it and as you
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correctly state with your own personal experiences, there's a widely different way of doing
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business in the UK to Germany,
to France, or southern Europe to northern
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Europe, to Ben a look to
the Middle East, and I think that,
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you know what a treating all of
those regions exactly the same can often
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prove, you know, very difficult
because I think, particularly if you look
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just high level, that you know
the way that you do the business in
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Middle East is that they're very much
it can be difficult to and a trait
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and when new business in the Middle
East, however, when you have very
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strong relationships with partners, with customers
in the region, you really take on
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more of a trusted adviser piece,
whereas if you flip back to, I
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imagine, probably from I mean,
I think in terms of being one of
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the potential biggest markets, but also, by quite some distance, one of
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the most difficult to do business and
would be Germany because if you look there
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obviously a huge economy. There's enormous
potential market, but there's enormous market potential
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in the region. How are there
anybody that has recruited soul to operation in
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Germany will say that it is a
very you know, it's a very different
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and all be kind of unique culture
even within Europe. And you know some
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of the stereotypes about Germans, ie
being you know, often they are one
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of the one of the last markets
to adopt new technologies. So as a
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result it can be very difficult to
hire or to sell new technologies over there
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because generally they are one of the
later adoptors. And if we go back
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to the point about cloud and about
cloud security in particular, the German market
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have huge concerns about privacy. They
have enormous concerns of where data restored and
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one of the key pieces that a
lot of the successful, a lot of
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the successful US vendors that come over
and particularly where data well, where there
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a cloud vendor a sense, where
data has to be stored in the cloud
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and sent back to the US,
often there will be a number of these
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vendors that will have to physically build
data centers in Germany to be able to
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get around, to be able to
get around some of the kind of restrictions
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and and some of the reasons why
cloud has been slow to adopt, particularly
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in Germany. But I think if
again, if you use juring as an
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example, so much about a successful
international expansion, and it goes back to
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the key bit is it's firstly hiring
the right person, and I think so
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much of it. If you get
a US vendor, that's the startup that
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hasn't there any business in Europe before. It's very important that a they higher
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the right person, and we can
come on later on to what characteristic is
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that person has. One of the
real key parts, and I say this
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during a lot of readership searches,
a real undervalue, is the ability to
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manage an influence or so obviously you
get first people on the ground of VP
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of Europs who are used to building
and leading teams beneath them. But so
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much of it, surely, when
you're going into a new region, is
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about managing the expectations of the US
vender. And I think so often,
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and it goes back again by the
interlinking with the point about market. You
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know, market adoption and market potential
is having a European leader in place that
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can successfully manage expectations of the US
in terms of what's actually going to be
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achievable. And I think sometimes US
venders can, or any vendors can,
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be bold in by a sales guy
or girl who, throughout the interview process,
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may say they could scale or achieve
thirty, forty percent higher revenues that
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some of the other people in the
processor. But I think it's really about
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not just taking the person who commits
the generating the bigger number, for taking
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somebody who's been through the journey before
it can actually give realistic numbers in terms
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of what they can achieve. And
I think so much been able to aid
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manage expectations above and also managing a
team below really helps the risk it because
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often so many venders, because I
think if you know, if you commit
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a number, as you well know, venders take that as written, implord
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that that's what's going to be achieved, and I definitely think having somebody that
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has got the level of seniority to
be able to manage upwards, but also
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still has enough kind of minds in
the fire and feet on the street to
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be able to go out and sell
this critical yes, yeah, absolutely so.
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If I was summarize a little bit
a few things here, fundamental key
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elements for six suspension. Number one
is a taming. Is The market tready
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for you? Number two would be
about umbracing and understanding the culture deferences and
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that they to just Ripley Gate,
whatever was a success in trial or or
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in North America and Latin what you
actually from and with your local market.
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And number three around, I guess, that first person on the ground,
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and I think there is I also
want to put a number four points,
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which is not being too naive or
over enthusiastic, and I think the real
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stations, because I think you're right, this expectation would also come from that
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first person that you are, but
you will almost come from the vendors.
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These two needs to agree on what
is realistic and obviously put themselves from under
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a bit of pressure is good,
but you want to make sure that if
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you work with someone who's already done
it in the past, you've got expectation
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from a board or from investors or
from a from a company. See Your
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perspective. It's about matching them to
make sure there is a planet can actually
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be achieved. That the four points
that you you wanted to put across.
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Yeah, I mean, yeah,
absolutely, because I think one, I
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mean I definitely think if you look, there's that. I mean I'm not
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sure if we get, if you're
mis coverless hour or crimelessie order the conversation.
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But again, so much is critical
about that first tire and there's a
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lot of character respects. But that's
that. You my next question, Matt
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So, about I'm glad you you
bring it back, ever, because that's
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a fantastic bridge question, and then
maybe I will appear with this what I'm
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ath to tire, but we aving
a ton of conversation which individual are looking
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at recruitine that first person on the
ground. I think you are at this
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button when you say this is this
is critzy called that those person will drive,
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that first person will attract. The
first person is almost like a Swiss
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army knife. Someone would needs to
be a well different ads but also would
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be able to put up their sleeve
to get the job done if needs be,
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as well as recruiting, selling,
getting involved with technical issues, all
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that sort of great stuff. So, based on your experience and when it
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comes to you supportting your clients,
you know they don't he find that first
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person on the ground. What are
the key skills that you are looking after,
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or what are the key skills that
you think vendors should be looking after?
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So I mean I think you know
generally if you're the first higher in.
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And again it's just for the purposes
of this conversation, let's keep using
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a US vendor as an example.
But obviously it's slightly different if it's you're
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repaying or Israeli. But if you're
set it up that a region, if
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you're the first hire in a region
anywhere. But let's say you're it's obviously
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very key. I mean because often
vendors make the mistake as hiring, you
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know, a sales leader that comes
from a more establish vendor, even within
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that space. So I guess if
we use end point security as an example,
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you know that it isn't it.
We those coming over the last few
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years, marketing particular, and another
yeahstment, lots of things from DC's as
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one. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, but I think on both
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points. So if you have,
I guess, the more old school endpoint
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vendors, Sociam Ante, McAfee,
trem micro, those sort of companies that
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are all public companies, you know, employee, thousands of people, generated
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hundreds and hundreds of millions of revenue. You then have a lot of these
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new endpoint vendors that would look to
display some of the larger players. So,
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as a result, you would think
it would be natural to go and
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head to hunt for the first salesperson
in the region, to go in ahead,
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somebody very senior from those organ from
that from the more legacy organizations.
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And without a shadow of a doubt, there's a lot of very capable people
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in larger organizations. However, if
you look at it holistically, somebody who's
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ahead of Europe or in a senior
sales position for a company that might have
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four, five, six, seven, hundred people in Europe, firstly,
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they'll be very they're very likely to
be completely removed from the coal face,
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so they're not going to be on
the street selling. They're not going to
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be on the phone to customers all
day every day. They may well have
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the infrastructure and of managed very very
large ps, very very large pnls and
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if ex having have a lot of
very good experience in terms of senior people
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leadership. However, whether then the
first comes over, and I think actually
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separating the two, you made a
good point that probably two years ago,
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against focusing on the endpoint market,
there was a number of vendors or with
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hundreds of millions of funding. So
when they first come to your they were
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typically higher a fairly senior VP of
eup, but that would be somebody that
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has worked for multiple startups before,
somebody that's been through the journey, that
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understands what it takes to what it
takes to be successful. But I think
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more so if you fast forward it, because I think if you look at
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some of those enders I just mentioned, they were coming over to your they
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were haring, you know, very
big hitting vp of europs who would then
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hire senior Presales, senior marketing in
the UK then often look to go and
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put feet on the street very quickly
in all of the regions and whilst you
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still absolutely need people who have worked
up in a startup environment, more so
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now, two years later, you're
seeing a real reduction in the number of
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vendors that have such significant funding.
So as it results, even though both
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of those types are you ones with
two and million or ones with ten million,
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both need to hire people that have
the start up DNA, in the
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startup characteristics. More so two years
later, after a lot of these companies
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come over, the first person on
the ground needs somebody that is able to
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go out, you know, and
boot doors open, so to speak,
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you know, when the very first
few accounts, because often somebody from a
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much larger business, he might not
eat, you know, it might have
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been ten or fifteen years since they
made fifty, sixty, seventy calls a
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day. And I think really getting
somebody that understands what is needed and somebody
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really that has a proven track record
of success working in a very similar environment.
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I'm really, really key with little
resource or budget, and that's why
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I think, particularly from a resource
perspect and generally, and obviously this is
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this isn't all encumbass in but generally
the view is the people that have worked
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for very large vendors, even if
they're in the same space will not be
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used to operating with very little support, very little infrastructure and all that sort
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of thing. So I think so
much of it relies on hiring people who've
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essentially built businesses from scratched before and
understand everything that goes with that. But,
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Sholie Maddy, must be a shortage
of the people. At some points
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I have there's a very there's very
much shortage of people, because there is
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there is more companies coming in a
tree, people who've done it, and
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you would expect to people who have
done it and we've done it well,
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you probably stay in job. It
was with our you know. I guess
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you know in a way, so
he's own. Guess I'm about to ask
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you a question about how you find
us people, but as can you maybe
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a less unless races characteristic. Are
you looking at someone was been a very
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good Sir Spellson, that wants to
take more respect on stabilities? Are you
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looking at some as you mentioned as
a most been very, very senior,
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but he's looking at getting more for
an exciting startup job and you know,
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order be walking much more closer to
the action. It's a truck. He's
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there. A profile is now he's
just he's do do it with feelings or
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do you do it a how would
you find the right profile and what are
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the Greaterias that you think? I'm
important to well, from a from people
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best pick teeth, from a human, skilled perspective. So I mean from
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my perspective, you know, as
you know, but sensely the viewers don't.
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I mean, I do kind of
specialize in helping start ups come over.
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So as a result having ran multiple
VP of Europe searchers, having worked
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with many of the high profile startups
that have come over, I personally have
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a very good network of what you
were classes, start up guys and girls.
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But you know, you're absolutely right
that so much of it depends on
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I think, touching on some of
the point of what we raised it in
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question one is that it's managing the
expectation of the vendor because so, for
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example, if you have a say, you know, or if it's safer
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to keep these in cloud security.
If I'm working with a series a ten
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or fifteen million backs cloud security vender, they might be at fifty or sixty
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people globally. You know, generally
when company start looking Europe or international expansion,
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is often because they might have of
global clients. So you know some
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of the very large finance houses,
for example, that they've sold into in
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the US been successful and they've essentially
been dragged into Europe or international because some
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of their global clients are saying,
well, Hey, can we buy the
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solution over here? But as a
result, if you've got to come to
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it's only fifty sixty people globally,
ten or fifty million dollars investment. What
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they need generally is generally a very
high performing individual contributor that wants to make
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a step up, somebody that's worked
in a very early stage company before,
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maybe has been sales higher two,
three, four or five, has been
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really successful, has gone through the
journey and now wants to take the step
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up and move into being that first
hire in the region. And I think
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if you look at some of the
companies that we spoken about that have huge
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funding rounds, often they will probably
go for the next level, so a
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VP of Europe that might have done
two or three successful IPOs or acquisitions,
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somebody that's built a business from zero
people to thirty or forty. But I
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think it's kind of interesting when you
look at the startups in general because whenever
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I'm talking to candidates and clients and
and I'm just using the numbers I speak
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about here just for illustration purposes,
but if you look at revenues from a
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start up perspective in Europe, I
always say you kind of have three stages.
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So you might have zero to five
million or zero to ten million,
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dependent on deal size, deal values, investment in the region excep what you
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might have one person that takes them
from zero to ten as a sales lead.
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That person is your typical kind of
regional sales director that's hungry, that's
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aggressive, that will be able to, you know, BOOT doors down open
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win a lot of the Marquis early
customers because, as you know, it
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can be extremely difficult to win those
first few reference customers. They then build
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the business. They would either lead
the business themselves and hire a pre sales
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person, a market in person,
EXC and then start expanding into the other
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territories which might be that first band
a looks northern Europe or or however they
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want to run it. But then
once they've got to that scale, is
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then at once they've got to that
size, is then important to potensally bring
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00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:37.210
it a more kind of commercially focused
leader, and the reasons that I say
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that is often the first higher you
make from a sales perspective. You know
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they're hungry, that they'll boot the
doors down. However, they don't always
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have the processes and procedures that when
you start getting to five or ten million
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revenue, that have to be put
in because obviously, when you're only doing
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a small number of deals, you
don't always necessarily have, you know,
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the best poc, you know the
POC's being run the best way or even
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or whatever. He's tenders. Yeah, exactly, I'm basically yeah exactly.
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And then I think you would generally
get someone that would then come in and
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take them maybe from ten to thirty
or forty million, and that would be
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stage two. And then often you
get somebody who would come in maybe a
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year or two before IPO and with
or IPO or acquisition and take them through
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the rest of that journey. So
I think often what you find is that
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they're a right people for right times
at venders and you do get some people
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who will be vp of a mare, will be the first sales higher in
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Europe and may still be there three
years later when the fifty people however,
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they're fairly unusual because when companies have
huge investment they have to grow incredibly quickly.
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So, as a result, that's
why I mean, I think particularly
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because there's been a lot of investment
and there's been so many new companies coming
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over to market. In terms of
that first sales, higher or very early
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00:24:00.230 --> 00:24:03.750
stage hires, whether it's sales,
pre sales whatever. I think your average
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ten year of a sales director or
VP of Europe at the moment it's probably
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about eighteen months, two years.
Yeah. So, as you can see,
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companies go through a lot of a
lot of changes. So as a
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result, your average tenure of someone
that these organizations is fairly sure and I
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think one of the natural things is, well, what can we do to
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try and get more longevity? And
I think a lot of it does come
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back to a the whoever is in
charge of the region being able to manage
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and build the region out underneath them. But again it goes back to manage
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the expectations of the vendor above the
managing the expectations of the more senior commercial
327
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guys over in the US. So
but I definitely think due to the huge
328
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amount of investment, the the industry
as a whole has become very short term
329
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and I think so much of that
is an apologies of them going out off
330
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on a tangent sign. It's just
for Nice, because I think really,
331
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the way I look at it,
that when I very first started working in
332
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cyber security seven or eight years ago, the perception of cyber was that it
333
00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:08.619
was a bit of a nerdy tie
area of the IT Department. People kind
334
00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:14.740
of had half an understanding of what
it is and what it was therefore,
335
00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:18.059
but he wasn't really a big thing. I mean, it's set along development
336
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.019
in terms of, you know,
the people that you keep rocks under the
337
00:25:21.099 --> 00:25:23.650
stairs that just do coding and you
bring them out for food and light a
338
00:25:23.730 --> 00:25:27.769
case. Then I think so much
if you look at even the past twenty
339
00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:33.609
four month you've gone from this perception
of security being a slightly nerdy, technical
340
00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:38.200
small part of the it depart all
of a sudden to influencing the US election,
341
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.160
you know, being that you know
this huge geopolitical factors. You know
342
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cyber wars, cyber warfare's being used
countries the country and I think in this
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00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.230
year's a hole has become a normal
you know, so much more high profile
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than it used to. And I
think one and it's kind of a benefit
345
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and a negative, is the fact
that traditional, when I first started looking
346
00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:02.109
at startups, you used to focus
on looking who some of them, of
347
00:26:02.190 --> 00:26:07.259
the wellknown VC's, what companies?
Aig funded so Andreas, and horrow it's
348
00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:11.220
Besima venture partners, the more traditional
VC's. But I think so much now,
349
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:18.339
because cyber is so high profile,
you've seen an absolute avalanche of investment
350
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from outside of the kind of core
traditional BC's, which is no bad thing.
351
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But I think there's a result if
you're working in an industry where seven
352
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or eight of the new entrance to
market. Again, if we use endpoint
353
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as an example, eighteen months,
two years ago, if you're a startup
354
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sales guy or sales girl or see
or marketing lead, if you've got six
355
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.240
or seven vendors, all with these
actually the same funding, all with very
356
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.920
similar products, how are you expected
to make a guess on who's going to
357
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be successful or not? And I
think there's been because there's been so much
358
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investment, the industry as a whole
is inflated with too many venders and,
359
00:26:56.269 --> 00:27:00.829
dare I say it, too many
recruiters and too many lead generation company.
360
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There's too much pr there's a million
events and I think the industry at the
361
00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:08.380
moment it's just a bit bloated and
one of the things is that you are
362
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seeing and you will continue to see
is hopefully, firstly an increase in IPOs
363
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because obviously that means a company has
gone public can be successful. But as
364
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a result you are also going to
see a continued number of startups being acquired
365
00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:27.769
by some of them more larger legacy
vendors that we've spoken about before because general
366
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really large legacy of and the struggle
to innovate and often siscoing as example,
367
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:40.839
often going a big mnating to buy
a large security capacity and obviously in the
368
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.430
company gets required it. It's a
great thing, particularly for the early stage
369
00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:47.990
people. But you know, if
you look, if you've got compli's got
370
00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:51.430
a hundred million funding and to get
is a gets a quiet to seven hundred
371
00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:55.829
million and that's obviously a superb result. However, if you look at a
372
00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.579
company that's got a hundred million funding
at the end of getting acquired for eighteen
373
00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:03.180
million, then you don't have necessarily
have to be the most forward thinking finance
374
00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:08.019
analyst to understand that that's not a
great resource. Yeah, absolutely, that
375
00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:14.130
was very full. My one was
associated with was a very pushing a person,
376
00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:15.930
or the image of a very pushing
eight person with a funny accent.
377
00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:21.170
I'm glad I found you today because
your guess you are like me. It's
378
00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:23.529
fun passing, but you know,
I really appreciate all the time you gave
379
00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:29.599
us to them in some of the
insight. Well, probably putting even further
380
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.960
all expecting from you today, but
I like the way you speak about you're
381
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.119
on the ledge industry. Is Absolutely
is beautiful to listen to. Now,
382
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.789
if any of our listener would like
to get in touch with you and would
383
00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:45.390
like to take conversation of Lane whise, you find your reason, because brain
384
00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:48.470
maybe look at what your company could
do for them or whatever. What is
385
00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:52.589
the best way to get old of
my Smith? Well, they can either
386
00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:56.819
reach out to me. I mean
it reads out to me on Linkedin.
387
00:28:56.019 --> 00:29:00.619
It's probably the easiest. Why?
It's Matthew Smith at CAM IN CONSULTING WAI.
388
00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:03.339
I'm obviously on linked it a lot, but if anyone wants to reach
389
00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:08.259
out directly, my email addresses and
Smith at at Camencom don't UK, but
390
00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:14.130
it's all on my linkedin profile.
So if anybody has any further questions and
391
00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:18.089
queries, yeah, please, please, reach out on that's one the for
392
00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:22.049
myth. Thank you again for your
time today. Let's off inside really android
393
00:29:22.089 --> 00:29:27.720
a conversation and we'll make sure that
we reinvade you very soon too. Falls
394
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:32.480
all done some of the conversation with
today on some of the key Topa you
395
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:34.160
touchdowns. So thank you very much
for your time. At no problem.
396
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:41.390
Look forward to the next one.
operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation
397
00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:47.750
for technology companies worldwide. While the
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398
00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:52.509
teams inhouse has existed for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of
399
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focus, agility and scale required in
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400
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sales. See How operatics can help
your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet.
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