Episode Transcript
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You were listening to bb revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay
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on the cutting edge of sales and
marketing in their industry. Let's get into
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the show. Hi, welcome to
be to be a revenue acceleration. My
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name is alien, with you and
I'm here today with Jimmy Funk, chief
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commercial officer at see on. How
are you doing to the Jimmy? Yeah,
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right, great, really good to
be on the show. Thanks for
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having me. That's an absolute pleasure. So today we want to speak about
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product led growth, which is a
very interesting to pick. But before we
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go into the the detail and stop
the conversation, can you please tell us
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a little bit more about yourself,
as well as the company your represents?
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H Yeah, sure. So you
know, real quick summary, ever since
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Uni I've been fortunate kind of landed
in the text base. So back even
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the last financial crisis, is kind
of went enter the ECOMMON payments world and
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I've been everywhere from individual contributor up
to team lead, up to kind of
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managing enter price sales teams responsible for
a region and rev and then, more
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laterally helping at a c Seo over
at an early stage risk text start up,
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so kind of pre series a and
responsible for sales and marketing for us.
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But as we're going to today,
it's a bit of a funny scenario
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because we like to do it very
differently at, say, on so we
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are at very product led and almost
empti sales, which is kind of weird
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right. This is different. Is
Good to be difficult if you had the
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shift commercial of yourself between the room
at the back of the office something like
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that. It's not. But it's
interesting because I would have said that,
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you know, a product led gross
conversation would probably be led more by a
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product marketing pus an if you win. So yeah, I like I like
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to pick up, I need to
relatively destructive coming from the chief commercial of
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his helm. Yeah, indeed,
and I think it suits well into some
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of the biases I had in the
in the thirteen years ever since I was
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involved. And can a tech sales
tech rev just over that time. It's
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not, you know, obviously enterprise
and sales works. Of course it does.
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Nobody saying that, but there is
a slight shift in the way that
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buyers buy that and I think what
plg product like growth, taps into is
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that kind of macrol the much wide
of you. That is slowly shifting slightly
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and, as we'll go into generally, the more incess things become competitive and
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saturated, then things like product led
principles probably stick out as a bit of
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our competitive advantage for what you do, especially what we do. We're in
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fraud tech, which, man,
that's been around like twenty our years,
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right, cyber security is mass yeah, it's super, super and is way
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to go about it. Yeah,
and it's complicated, right, I get
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it from the other side of the
fence. If you've got a risk and
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fraud problem, man, is so
hard to find, you know, relevant
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tech for what you need and when
you do, it seems like there's ten
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other options at least for what you
do. And so I think some of
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the principles will go into and share
and they're not totally divergent from, you
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know, kind of what we do
at sales, but they just put a
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different twist on how that dynamic works
when you engage with a buyer. That's
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the kind of feet key thing.
Yes, I would have said that use
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use product led growth into difference aspect
when the respect of acquisition on must and
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one aspect of retention of the customer. But but let's get straight into the
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practicality of it. So I'll do
you. How do you apply that concept
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of product led growth at seem?
Yeah, lots and lots of ways and
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I think I think what's good is
we go back to first principles with tech,
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and that's kind of mainly my background
is, even though being on the
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red side, ultimately I've been really
fortunate to align with companies that we're seen
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at the forefront of what they were
doing at the time and then we're,
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you know, successful enough to be
acquired, quite frankly, so acquired by
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the likes of visa, the likes
of Amex and the likes of in genical
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payments over the last three kind of
adventures, and but all of them it
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was about trying to find the tech
that was seen as the cutting edge at
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what they do. So your conversations
with prospects ultimately go back to our first
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principle of having something that really helps
straight away. So what we do at
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say on it to make a practical
in terms of when we talk about product
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like growth, is we try and
do things very differently from the traditional engagement
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model. If someone's trying to buy
something, especially in fraud tech, the
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three things classically we always talk about
is man go ahead and do your research
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online and find competitive solutions and just
try and do three things. Number one,
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try and first of all find out
the pricing for it on their website.
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You know, that's a pretty kind
of low barrier to what you want
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to you know, find out before
you buy something. Right, it's just
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what the heck the pricing is?
Number One, pricing. Number two,
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try and go ahead and, if
you're interested enough, book a natural demo.
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Was So one in the next thirty
minutes. Try and do that.
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If you see a demo page is
generally a proxy for contact us. It's
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really frustrating, right. It's just
they'll get back to you, whenever they
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get back to you, and chances
are they're going to qualify the Hecko of
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you, because if you're too small
then are going to help, and that
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really that's really frustrating. And then
thirdly, and this is our bigger bet,
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it's going to move very deav led
a lot of these decisions and it's
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going to be experience of how somebody
interactive your API, how quickly it is
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to use. Is the documentation understandable
and can someone get you in in their
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product woradmap? And that's about sampling
a bit of value before you even have
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to interact with a human. So
those are the three things are say on.
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We believe unbelievably strongly in so.
Our website is our shop and it
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is the main interaction point for our
customers. So you can book a them
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all straightaway, you can sample the
product and, thirdly, you can see
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clear pricing and everything about Plg is
about transparency and you can do all that.
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We thought interacting with the SOLS person. Yeah, spun on, this
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is cool. Okay, cool,
I get it. So it's really that
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sort of self service kind of okay, you know what, we're going to
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be very honest with you and we
won't do it all our competitors think is
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the right thing, which is a
I'm gonna call you and I'm going to
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try to absolutely tell you that I
need to meet with you. Then when
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I meet with you, I will
try to Foscel Demo on you that you
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may not want to seem as my
process. You know, we want to
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do a demo, we want to
shoe your stuff and then, at the
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end of the day, more,
we'll ask you if you've got a project,
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if you'd have a project. You've
never I often again and you know.
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So okay. So basically what you're
trying to do that is almost educate
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the prospect online with full transparency and
almost building up that sort of relationship where
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they will trust the brand a little
bit more by the time young gage and
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and I guess by the time you
engage, you've got a better qualification of
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a better positioning from the prospects is
of his interest towards your solution. Yeah,
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that's that's a hundred percent a right. And just to extend on that.
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So the other way to look at
it is and the dynamic of the
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engagement, classically speaking, and enterprise, midsize up enterprise, up sales.
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Right, it's a it's a top
down approach. That's why you go ahead
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and work, you know, with
a partner like you to get interested,
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but then also when you engage your
own inhouse team, those guys are probably
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engaging at CX level or exact level
to try and get sponsorship. Why is
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that the case? Because, classically, to deal with complicated problems that need
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some sort of like endorsement from the
top down. The Bet we're making is
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the SASS world is moving more and
more towards bottom up adoption. So we've
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seen this another domains, like slack, like twilly Oh. We're essentially the
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end operator has a problem and the
end operator is trying to look for a
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tool online, as we all are, as we all are consumers, right,
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we all research and the hecker stuff, and they want to kind of
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experience value to sort to help their
day job. They and they out,
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and so our kind of approaches by
enabling those kind of bottom up or operative
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people, then they're they're the early
fans, and letting them do free trials,
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letting them experience a product without any
kind of friction, means that we're
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not saying top down doesn't exist.
Of course, you know we're adding in
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an outbound component to what we do
at say on but it makes a conversation
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so much richer when you can turn
around to the CIO and you can say,
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Hey, I see that your team
has already been utilizing our product for
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the last six months and their usage
rate is this. Can we have a
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chat about you know about this in
a wider scale. That's a much more
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rich conversation of course, now appreciate
that next Prophet since, but do you
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believe it's that product led gross strategy
is is relevant for companies, whether much
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more complex? So Cycle. So
what I'm thinking about the whatever when I
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speak about complex things like could,
because there is not some interpretation. For
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me, it's kind of the moots
by your personal journey. So I'm coming
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with something you know slightly is very
successful. But technically you could have what
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Sapp you could have skype for business, you could have lots of us are
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stuff. It's like it's just what
everybody wants, like because make it's cool.
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But you know, some of our
comes of a very destructive solution.
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They basically creating a category for themselves
because no one did what they had before.
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So do you think the sort of
strategy as you got a see and
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could could be applied to the small, complex and cycles? Well, first
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of all you may have to kiss
a few frogs before you can find your
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prince charming and the game we get
actually sponsor you, actually take some money
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out of that boocket to finance your
project. But also, when you get
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there, they really want to you
may have approve of value. That is
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already asking for a certain level of
commitment from the prospects organization because they may
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have to give critical information or they
may have to put up some sellvers or
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whatever it is. Yeah, all
those dynamics are like bray. The realities,
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all those still exist and in what
we do with risk, TEP protect,
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that's really complicated. That's so that's
a really that's full of loss of
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dependencies, lots of data security,
lots of data right and in this time
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in age or GDPR and being based
on the EU, it's it's a really
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tricky thing. So this actually happens
to us as well, for sure.
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So I think the key principle when
looking at something like a product like growth
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is to take away and concepts like
time to value. That's really what you're
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looking to get the prospect to experience. Now we segment o our product,
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so there's lots of different use cases
which can use us for as most fraud
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tech you can, and it's about
trying to package it up so that little
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bits are understood and you can essentially
sample something tangible, which is easy to
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do without necessarily having to do a
massive, complicated project. That's the first
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thing. So time to value.
So when we talk about product like growth,
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and a lot of our analytics and
data and measurement are around trying to
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help convert customers to something that gives
them a light bulb moment or an Ahr
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moment. So the cool thing from
this Sam rays. These are BETC concepts.
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These aren't just be to be things. So I'll use example. Like
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you know, look at spotify,
look at Netflix, like you can bet
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they are spending their gazillions of research
with data scientists checking when you download that
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product, how engaged are you quickly, and they are adjusting everything right from
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AB testing the language they're using to
the Cetas a call to actions. They
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are trying to Tweeke you towards because
that's what they're trying to do. They
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trying to get you to experience value
as soon as possible. We all know
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this intuitively, but where it's not
being well adopted is in certain spaces,
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I would say payments and fraud is
a little bit behind, but in Sass
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this is very well understood. That's
the way that we go at say on
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about it. So the more complicated, I would argue, the more ripi
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it is for PLG. Okay,
so what consert you think so. You
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just started to mention that. So
what concert should we think from etc.
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To a braid to be to being
that that particular instance would be do the
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key tactic gold things. That's if
I'm starting my Johnny, I should do
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straight away. I should be looking
at straight away. Yeah, so the
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bar is said, really high.
From an experiential point of view, right,
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we are now conditioned with all the
same things we get from our BTC
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experience. We should be thinking about
from a B tob point of view,
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incorporating those. So some of the
ones we have, for instance on a
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tactical level, are one of the
objections to any risk and fraud techs is
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such a complicated product project to go
ahead and do. If you are doing
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it, even when you experience time
to value, that just gets you over
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a certain ill. But really,
for us it you don't really see value
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until your life with a live environment
and you see live transactions, and that's
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a reality, no matter what anybody
says, that's the reality. So for
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us we try and flip on his
head. So for us we don't have
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multi year contracts. Really we're more
like Netflix, where it's a thirty day
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contract and it's a complete flip,
because nobody else does that. And then,
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but the psychology behind it is man
it puts all the product risk on
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us as a vendor, as a
SASS company, and it's designed so that
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is d risking. From the CFO's
point of view, that's that's a that's
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one betc concept, right, is
that. We're all used to that.
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Imagine Netflix try to tie you in
for a year, right, that would
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suck. You know what? My
next question is about all your play that
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to the Sun. Is Business will
and I think you know this is this
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is some yet we realize as well. We really is at up, because
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we are savvy's company and you can
go and get the twelve months contract and
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stuff like that. But the barrier
is let people, I could. We
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need you to prove yourself and and
if the if the sad sees good,
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it just have tways good. We
want to keep going. If he's that
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good, we want to be able
to change. Yeah, the hundred percent,
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a hundred percent. And and you
know the reality of situation is is
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think about the back psychology for someone
to choose to say working with you guys.
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It's not like a quick decision,
right. There's a lot of kind
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of logic. There's a lot of
justifications, a lot of business case and
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by the time someones actually invest that
time with you, would be very rare
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that somebody would ramp you up for
thirty days and it would suck and there
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was and there's no reparable way to
kind of do that and turn you off,
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because that's not what both parties won
they want to make it work,
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of course. So that so it
does. It does make sense as well.
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But I get it. We're moving
from a legacy world of book to
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revenue. Some of us is accountancy
legacy and how SASS companies have done it,
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specially in payments and fraud. But
for us that's a that's a that's
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an easy thing. We can learn
from the BTC world. Other concepts in
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the BTC world the level of measurement
on analytic usage. So if you're going
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to go self serve, like you
know what say on does, then you
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better be great at measuring all those
interaction points behind the scenes, because then
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you can start segmenting your users and
you can start doing things like communications where
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show appropriate. So the person that
starts to trial account doesn't ever actually go
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into the system and interact with.
It is very different from the one that
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invites ten teammates and the ten teammates
start a you know, using the system.
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So you want to start segmenting so
that way there's clever enough communication that's
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appropriate for that user. And what
we think about, say, one is
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trying to spend time with the ones
which win instead of the ones which aren't
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going to engage. We're not trying
to push a rock up a hill right.
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We're trying to work with the guys
that get value. And it should
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be mentioned we're early stage, so
we're all about trying to get fans.
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So that's why these BTC concepts are
so key to us, because we don't
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care about converting the whole market yet
and we care about finding, you know,
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those fans which are going to turn
around and talk about the net be
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net proponent, promoters of sale.
So that question what was kind of coming
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to the back of my mind.
I've been I've been in full conversation with
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investors. This is the companies investing
in startups and now, lad sat to
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days you need to have recurring revenue, you need to have multier. We
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speak about Aarr, we speak about
valuation. So do you think that product
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led a project it we speaking about
it one of the tactical aspect, which
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is like the serty days, kind
of nuts at any time, and you
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know sen self type of stuff.
But do you think this is so?
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Yet would be sustainable for you,
let's say, in five years from now,
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Daniels, from now, when you
have to move to a more traditional
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subscription, because you can? You
now like the the equivalent of a seal
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as farce. You're not the equivalent
of a service. Now, you know,
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the equivalent of a slack and it's
like probably get go to their clients
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and if someone wants like they wanted
so bad, look it's twelve months minimum
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and that that's fine, because I
wanted so bad what my friends you it.
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So you think it's just sill everyone
in the long time, what do
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you think you would have to you
when you're going to Fard it? You
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may have to change that from product
led to a more SASS big company type
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of approach. Yeah, and you
know, we remember the SASS numbers came
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out a little bit earlier this year
and they reported a significant portion of their
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rev when they pass the x billion
N Arr was down to enterprise. Now
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slack. You never solved like as
traditional enterprise. But it makes sense,
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right. I look at big they
are now. That's where the market is.
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So I think everyone adapts as a
short answer, right, and to
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this, we're at the stage worth. We're just three years old, so
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we get we're in the very fund
stage, right. We're in. We're
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in the hey, we've got a
bunch of earlier doopter fans and we're just
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getting we're getting dragged into bigger and
bigger deals and we're trying to keep to
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ICP ideal customer profile. That's very
important to us. But I would say
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inevitably we're already being dragged into deals
where the customer wants, Hey, we
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don't want to sign a thirty day's
notice that we love the idea, but
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actually we need you for six to
twelve months because it takes us a lot
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longer to go ahead and find the
redundancy if something happens. So this is
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already happening organically, of course.
Maybe on to that topic of VC's,
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a kind of investment and how they
look at kpies like us. So if
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we're PLG, then I would say
that it just moves the type of metrics
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that we that they look at for
us slightly different, but it's the same
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basis as still monthly recurring revenue,
MRR, and it's the velocity right.
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It's how much growth are you still
getting? And you know, you can
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still measure churn from that and you
can still measure arr extrapolate Arr from that
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as well, and so those still
meant those same metrics are very much still
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being tracked on our end. That's
no different. But using PLG, I
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think the fact that we have,
you know, like a third day's notice
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isn't so much a barrier because other
SASS companies as kind of is kind of
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become more standard now across other Sass
and you can measure the churn. The
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key is, you know, is
a turn ramping up, you know,
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with that the tricky thing from our
end. We've had that from day one
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and it goes back to Ray.
For us, the founder story of say
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on, you know, literally two
young, smart guys out of core vinish
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university in Budapest. They were a
crypto exchange initially and they were hit by
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fraud and they looked at the market
because they needed the fraud solution right there,
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right then. Otherwise you're going to
burn. And there was great solutions
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out there. There's brilliant solutions,
but they would all take weeks, if
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not moms to get up and running
and they they didn't have the he affordability.
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So everything about saying was designed around
that principle, around kind of no
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barrier commercially to kind of getting up
and running. It's it's some of our
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customers call us. I don't know
if it's good or bad, but the
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stripe of fraud prevention and I think
that's a good analogy because in the same
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way for payments that they made it
so easy to work with them. It's
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kind of what we're trying to do
for the more complicated world of fraud and
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risk. Yeah, what thanks.
By inside GIMMY. We get into the
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end of the decisions. Then,
fortunately, and what we asked usually at
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that at that point of the of
the conversation is if people wants to carry
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on the conversation, get your brain
up and carry on. I'll discuss about
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00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:45.089
seeing speak about your solution and know
you could add them's the best way to
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00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.809
get into trees, Jimmy. So
our website, say on dot Io is,
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00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:52.920
is a great place where reachable,
you know, pretty much most times,
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00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.200
and they're funny enough. I'm manning
the chat just now excutely. Really
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00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.119
want to get in touch during working
hour. Is that I'm part of the
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00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.759
chat team just now, otherwise Linkedin
as so just my name, Jimmy Fom
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00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.750
Fong. That's perfect. Well,
many things. Once again, Jimmy eat
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00:20:07.869 --> 00:20:11.309
was an absolute pleasure to have on
this for today. Great to be on.
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00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:17.349
Thanks very thanks again. operatics has
redefined the meaning of revenue generation for
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00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:22.779
technology companies worldwide. While the traditional
concepts of building and managing inside sales teams
307
00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:27.619
inhouse has existed for many years,
companies are struggling with a lack of focus,
308
00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:34.420
agility and scale required in today's fast
and complex world of enterprise technology sales.
309
00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:41.569
See How operatics can help your company
accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've
310
00:20:41.609 --> 00:20:45.849
been listening to be tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an
311
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episode, subscribe to the show in
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312
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much for listening. Until next time,
