Episode Transcript
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You were listening to be tob revenue
acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software
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executives stay on the cutting edge of
sales and marketing in their industry. Let's
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give them the show. Hi,
welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration.
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My name is onion with tier and
I'm here today with make on Hanson,
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thunder and cells. Consultant that growth, Jenny, how are you doing
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to the make all well? Good, thanks for invites me on the show.
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I'm going to say this again,
but I'm going to call you right
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as I hear a lot of people
no fund stickers. One of the most
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in US name for me, so
that's kind of cool. I respond to
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many names. So I'll discussion today
will be surrounding outdown spells, cadencies,
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and we know that you are an
expert when it comes to that. To
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pick. But before we go into
the conversation, could you just tell us
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a little bit more about yourself,
as well as your company growth? Jenny?
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Yeah, sure, so we're sales
consultancy. We're quite a new company,
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about a year old, and we
essentially how BB sours teams have better
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conversations. We do that through setting
up repeatable scale, but outlun processes such
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as play works, Caden says,
etc. Before I set out the company,
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I actually used to be in your
space, in the outsource as the
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our space. Yeah, how's a
company grow from five people in the CEO's
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apartment over two hundred, and not
going to mention their name, as I
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want to mention from patent as and
what some one your podcast our respite.
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But learned a lot about different techniques, what works, what doesn't, and
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one of the things I saw that
you may have seen as well as actually
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when companies outsource of challenge, so
they don't have good flavor its, cadences,
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messaging in place, often they fail. The companies that outsource the best,
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it's when they have very good processes
in place and then, like an
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outsource team can sit on top of
that and as part of the reason that
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may sound great, you need to
help that companies build, build that messaging
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grout one. So it's about building
up playbooks. So do you actually do
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the whole play books, like getting
information from the market and everything? What
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would your clients come from? Originally
with they have absolutely nothing, or with
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the have something. But I'll do
you on bug bus bus, they buff
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clients on board. Yeah, we
kind of do both. Typically, some
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companies have tried to do outbound but
they pretty much failed. So they maybe
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fired their first you know to bed
ours and they haven't got the messaging right.
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Often what happens as well as when
bedos rest ours don't have managers,
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they don't succeed, because a lot
of companies are like hey, we're going
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to hire s the ours and they
can do their job, but often as
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the oars are like green or graduate
roles. So when that happens they need
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that support and that's kind of where
we can come in. We can almost
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act as a virtual video manager.
And then we've got other companies that are
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bigger and maybe they've got a team
of like ten, twenty SD ours and
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we're more helping them optimize their cadences
and their playbooks. Or perhaps they've got
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a new product launching that we can
help them build that messaging for. So
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those are kind of typically for the
two different scopes. Makes Perfect expense.
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So thanks for that. May Call. So you've developed a certain touch on
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each channel. Outbound, Sol skeddings, that combines linkedin out buncling SMS.
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What's up? Any mail. I'm
very interested to unders on a little bit
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more about the words up elements.
I'm sure you're going to get to eat
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in a minute, but could you
please show some more details of the sequence
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with our audients and maybe show a
few stats that you've seen working with it?
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Yeah, definitely. So it's a
funny timing a DIS question because I'm
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actually going to do a Webinar on
Thursday this week. We lead feeder and
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the reously, where I think we
first came into contacts with each other.
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On a lead feed Webinar. It's
going to be an outbound tenance for two
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thousand and twenty one, but it's
going to be quite similar to the one
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we already have in place. So
we released it in January. So it's
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pretty pandemic. So a lots changed
since then, but there's a few things
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that are staying the same. So
like the thirty touches themselves, which I
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can talk through. So typically we're
looking about ten to fifteen phone calls,
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seven to eight emails and seven eight
linkedin messages. And again this seems like
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a lot and I think this is
why it was our most viral bit of
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content, because people are like thirty
touches. That's in saying you can't Harrask
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people. But, as you said, like there are statistics behind this.
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So when it comes to cooling,
for example, typically a connect rate,
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according to connecting cell, which is
a power dialer, who've analyzed millions of
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phone calls, typical connects rate,
I think, is actually about four percent,
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and so what that means is essentially
could be like one in twenty calls
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are going to be answered. It
can go higher or lower. SEF you're
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calling sales people because they're expecting business
to come in, that can be ten
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percent, or if it's kind of
like sometimes it personas even marketing can be
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the law, about three percent.
So essentially you've got to do a lot
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of calls just to have one conversation. But the phone can still be a
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very powerful tool, as you'll know, operatics, and I think when people
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think of thirty touches, often they're
thinking of you're having thirty conversations, but
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that's not it. It can take
thirty touches essentially to have one conversation.
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And then the rules in terms of
like linkedin and email. Typically I say
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don't ask for a meeting on the
first email. First Linkedin message, just
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ask relevant questions or share a bit
of content that things very relevant to them,
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like give away a piece of content, like if you follow Josh Brown
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on Linkedin, he talks about deposits. Essentially doing that deposit and then warm
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the mark as you go along.
The phone is different because on the phone
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you can actually have an interactive conversation, you can identify the pains and then
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you can picture meeting. It's more
difficult and email. So I don't recommend
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actually asking for a meeting on the
first email or linkedin message. And then
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there's a few as I said,
we're about to release a new cadence with
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lead feeder and videyard. There's a
few things of have changed since January with
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our one, which is one voice
notes. We use now on Linkedin.
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So voice notes are really good.
What I like about them is it's kind
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of a way you can scale personalization, because I find videos can take quite
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a long time. You're thinking about
how you look, what you share.
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There as a voice note, you
literally just touched a button on your phone
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and like send a voice note.
You can quickly scan their linked in profile.
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And then another thing we're using as
well at the start is linkedin Poles.
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So one of the hardest things as
an SDR is like actually knowing what
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the pains are of your buyers.
You kind of have to make an assumption.
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Versus if you're like an a or
a closer, you get an in
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boundary. They've told you what your
pains are. You can do discoveries,
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but when you're an Sdi you don't
do that. You're going completely cold.
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So that's a new thing we're doing. We actually sound like a survey on
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the first message and Linkedin like bars
a prospect, you ray as a CEO
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with the sales out would love your
feedback on this. This quick pole related
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to outbound sales challenges. Or you've
got to do as press a button,
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and I know that's a challenge for
you, and then I can personalize the
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message based on that. So really
the cadence is stayed the same, but
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there's a couple of new things were
using, which are surveys and linkedin voice
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notes. Pretty good. That sounds
really good. And what's up? I
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mean he's that I know that we
have a fair few clients nice trail,
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for example, and when we are
prospecting on the Alpha for poetics the way
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I'm engaging with make clients. Nis
frilli is very much what'sai based. Seems
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to love Word Service. So it's
a wall of communication. It's quite it's
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just come and leave you wheel and
people are quits relax about to contacting them
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directly and adding you on what's up. I feel it he is maybe less
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so feared. We see less in
western Europe and North America. Do you
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have any comments on that? Yeah, definitely, I think. Yeah,
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just the use of what's up in
North America is people tend to use eye
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message as more SMS. So I
recommend a North America to use SMS.
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WHATSAPP is still being in Europe.
As you said, it's not use that
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much for business purposes. Yeah,
that's actually why I think it can be
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very powerful. Because of GDPI,
you have to be careful. So SMS
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can be tricky in certain countries within
Europe, like especially Germany, but actually
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really across Europe. So if someone
hasn't opted in, it's quite difficult.
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If you got leads like Webin our
leads or Ebert leads or people that have
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come to your website and giving you
their phone number, you've actually got professions
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to send them an SMS or send
them a what'Sapp, and a lot of
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people don't actually do that. So
I really recommend that. And an again
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the messages. It's like if you're
texting a friend. The messages have to
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be super short. It's quite a
good way to nurture someone. Something I
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can even do is, like you
send a very personalized email and then you
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can send them an SMS or what's
that like? Any thoughts on my email?
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Jeff Right, it's mixing that like
absolutely much nice email with just like
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a quick follow up on usms or
what's up? Yeah, I think that
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makes sense. I actually use it
for following up on conversation at me get
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a little bit difficult to be done
by email. So when I can of
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see that a prospect or client is
is taking two, three days to respond
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to an email, I try new
ways and sometimes it's a phone call.
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You know, we've got clients who
are like Super Responsive to fund calls,
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particularly sells people dumb much, but
on phone calls, in my opinion,
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without making generalities, then emails and
then what's upports. So walkwere with a
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few. So I've seen that in
that maybe the larger companies where people may
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have know. If you they cannot
recall IBM Google and all that. I
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think people have died ay relatively regimented. Quite a lot of meetings, a
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lot of internally male slack, lots
of us a bits and pieces. So
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basically the computer is maybe getting a
little bit of a whelmed, but people
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still check their fun without any stats. Again, in my opinion, I
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found that in large organization where maybe
the day is more regimented and there is
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lots of it Maale, lots of
Admin. What's up has worked well for
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me, but more when I've already
got that relationship in place, if you
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will, but when I'm when they
already no mean they know who I am,
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and then I will lead them on
to what's up as a new channel
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to accelerate things for me. But
that makes sense. So thanks for that
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my call. I will want to
go back to the data in a minute
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because I thought that decided the topic
of today, but before then I want
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to speak about automation versus personalization.
Okay, because I know that you know,
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you and I is are part of
the same groups. You see e
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mails coming through and linkedin groups and
all that, and lots of people speak
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about automation. You know, it
seems to me that automation is not for
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absolutely everyone. It seems that personalization
maybe more relevant when you are very account
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based driven, very top heavy,
large deal complex cell cycles. But what
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I'd like to get at like to
get your thoughts on that. I'd like
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to understand issue. Believe also that
you can be targeted and personalized, but
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that scale. Yeah, definitely.
I think one of the issues with this,
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Surbay, is that people who take
two extremes right. If you follow,
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you know, recycled suns influences on
Linkedin and you go on your face
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your one extreme, which is saying, you know, silence as a numbers
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game, ultimate everything, and then
you got another extreme, which is don't
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automate anything, you have to personalize
everything. And I sit somewhere in the
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middle. I think when it comes
to automation, you need to segregate your
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list because I think one of the
problems people have is they're like a kain
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of I've got a list of Threezero
people that I can contact for this campaign.
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If you send all threezero people the
same message, you're going to fail.
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So you've got to split into kind
of the obvious things. which are
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the job titles? Right, I
sell to probably same as you, marketing
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leaders, sales leaders and the CEO's
are small companies. I'm going to have
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different messaging for all those different personas. And then industries, right, target
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industries where you've already got case studies
and then mentioned that in your sequence.
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And then the other thing, which
you know, I'm sure to you,
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is basic ray, but a lot
of companies aren't doing, is triggers.
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Right. So say you're a software
and you integrate into another software. Build
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a list of companies that use that. There's so many tools that you can
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do that. Companies that are raised
around companies are recently launched the product.
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So if you're building these trigger events
into your messaging, essentially it looks like
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the emails are actually personalized. In
fact they're automated. So the key is,
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when you're building messaging like have a
list. It's segregate your lists into
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triggers, job titles and industries,
and then you're going to be more successful.
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And then, of course, I
believe in like hyper personalization for your
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best leads, essentially. So I
also think have almost like a tear one
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account list where, like this,
companies are really good fit for us,
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and most of its personalized. Right, you go and linked in profile,
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you are on a company website and
you look for things that you can talk
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about. So I will essentially believe
in a mixture. But where automation goes
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wrong is when people doing a spraying
prayer approach to one lest. Yeah,
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you need to segregate your less and
then build messaging around different triggers, job
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titles and industress. Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. So let's
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speak about data. Very, very, very weight to pick two. So
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what you do is is fantastic.
You know, you do the word see,
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it is that the cells, caudents, the message, the intelligence that
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you will put in. That is
kind of the Ferrari of the campaign.
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Okay, and then you need two
things around. You need the data and
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the VIDEA. Okay, the data
would be the patrol that you put in
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the Ferrari and the VIDEA is the
gate. We drives a Ferrari. Okay,
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if I Milton was to drive a
Ferrari and I was to drive a
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Ferrari, he probably would finish the
race before me because he's probably better driving
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academy. So and I think I
think it's the same with BDL. So
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all those that take a system work
with what you do. Do you have
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to drive specific discipline requirement from the
data perspective and also specific discipline requirement from
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a bidia perspective, particularly for automosion? Is that available, just to make
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sure that they actually follow the rules
and you know so? So I'd like
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to know on how you work with
at ECO system, because this is a
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fair you may not be able to
influence at Gross Jenny, but I'd like
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to understand what are the kind of
any check in the process that you are
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having on both sides, from a
data perspective and from a BIDEA perspective,
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to make sure that you know your
Ferrari is actually moving from the driveway and
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is being driven properly. Yeah,
but I love your metaphor and analogy of,
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you know, the car de Ferrari
and the fuel and completely align that.
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The data such an important part and
actually historically where I've seen campaigns fail
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in my last role and then with
my clients is from data, because data
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is the first thing that if you
get that one, then however good the
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be Dr is, they're not going
to be successful. And in terms of
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we do have a big influence in
our clients. So before the sales process
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and then in the first week of
on boarding, we going to a lot
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of detail about the Cape. Where
you getting your leads right, if you're
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doing cold outbound rather than just having
load of inbound leads, where you getting
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your leads? I'm going to try
and be vend the neutral here, so
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I'm not going to mention particular vendors. But yeah, essentially you need a
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data source right. There's so many
data sources out there, so you need
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to establish a gay which is the
best data source for our ideal customer profile.
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And then also it's like the text
that what sales engagement platform you're going
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to use to reach these people.
So we'll go into a lot of detail
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on that. And I think one
of the things that I've seen that companies
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don't do is they get a data
platform, but then they get their bedrs
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to spend all the time building lists, and what you want your bedrs to
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do is be doing outreach right.
You want them to be a hundred percent
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focused on actually sending linkedin messages,
sending personalize emails, making phone calls and
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not building lists or suddenly I always
recommend our clients is either have like interns
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or like a junior sales person that's
building. This will be videos, or
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outsource that as well, right,
or outsource you're dated someone else, because
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for me that's the most frustrating thing
when I hear videos. I spend fifty
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sixty percent of my time actually research
and building less. You want them to
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be spending their time actually reaching out
to people. That's the way. Something
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I mentioned to clients and something that
I need to think about. Yeah,
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also, I'm a big believer in
prospecting myself and I think that's kind of
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the way between that time. I
would the driver make the most of the
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picture it is available in the cal
basically, how do you drive efficiently?
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But I do believe that, without
mentioning any name, but some of the
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larger that are base in the US
are being absolutely ameled. So for the
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onguage, yeah, but I think
they're just being pested those people. If
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your name is one of those large
database, we know there extreme main names
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and some of them maybe to get
on now. Actually, if your name
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is in there, I mean your
fun must be ringing thousands of times a
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day because you've got dialers going at
you, you've got people going at you
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and then your email inbox must be
absolutely overwhelmed as well with marketing automation,
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people blasting stuff, etc. Etc. So we have actually seen as a
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company, we seen less results from
and that's a shame because you know,
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sometimes you know, we always try
to identify why your company is performing well
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versus another and the compaign that are
performing the best. Obviously when we do
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your thoughts right, which is getting
the cadens right and getting the message right,
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and he all start out with the
sales playbook. And then the other
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part is when we actually kind of
almost manually walk on the data. So,
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as you said, you know,
get someone that build the data from
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the video, but not just stop
and saying, how, you know what
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I'm going to do, an extract
from the database and here is your list.
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Someone that actually go and check,
verify, make sure that the contact
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out the right contact, because I
do agree with you, and as a
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reason why you own the podcast today, about the searchy touches and really the
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only channel is so important. But
then, when you think about it,
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what you want to do, your
wants your video are not only to not
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go and get the data themselves,
but also you don't want them to spend,
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I don't know, a couple of
hours, three hours, going through
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search he touches or more potentially,
because they've got a limited number of accounts.
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Yeah, it's very ABM focusing on
the wrong people because of course they
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will be backing at the wrong tree. So that's that's kind of the the
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dilemma that we see sometimes and something
that is actually quite case by case driven
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when it comes to solving it.
But that's one of the major dilemma our
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clients. I kind of scratching the
back of Din and say I don't understand.
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I've got that big database that spend
the thousands of dollars on every year.
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I've got that beautiful sales playbook that
we build ourselves or we used or
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you know, operatics. May I
well Don doing bits and pieces. We
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don't really do it, but we
kind of help with the feedback we're getting
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from the prospect but yeah, it's
about how you get all that singing and
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dancing sometime the dilemma. So that's
where I was interesting, but maybe maybe
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finnows our conversation. My call.
I've got one last question for you and
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it's about the onder me. I'm
sorry, we're all fed up with covid
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nineteen, but since the start of
the Bundermick, have you seen a shift
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or change to our bump prospecting?
Have you seen the way people are going
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about it to be different? I
know that you're speaking about your two thousand
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and twenty one. You can then, so I'm sure you've got some finding,
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but I'd like to discuss your main
findings and your show. That was
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our gent piece. Yeah, sure, so I'll go back to a stat
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that I mentioned earlier, so that
the average connect rate for a cold cause
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about four percent. And this was
again the only bander I've mentioned connecting.
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So I just because they have this
data so you can look at ut across
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millions of calls. They said the
average connects rate for a cold calls,
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essentially you receive a number on your
phone you don't know who it is,
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is four percent. So it's like
less than one in twenty. That's gone
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up actually by one percent to five
percent right. That seems like a very
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small number of the connect rates gone
up by one percent. If you're doing
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fifty calls a day or a hundred
calls a day even you're going to get
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either one or two more conversations every
day or two days with that stat and
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that means essentially, say you get
four more conversations a week, that's sixty
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more conversations a month. I few
of those turning to deals and you're selling
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into enterprise. That could be like
millions, multi many of you've got lots
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of bdrs. That's, you know, potentially multimillions of revenue cost. So
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the point I'm trying to make is
that actually cooling has become even more important
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this year and I think it's funny. There's always is these conversations like this,
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cold calling, Dad, etc.
I think calling this year has it's
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become not easier, but the as
I said, the connects rate has gone
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up and I think for me,
I've always said, the phone is still
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the number one channel to prospect because
you can have an interactive conversation. If
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I email you with a question,
you don't really have to answer. If
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I linked in you with a question, you have to answer, where if
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I'm on the phone, ninety percent
of the time you're going to answer because
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the only other thing you could do
is hang up, which you know most
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people have the respect to not do
that. Yeah, I think so.
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I think the phone has become even
more important this year and then I think
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with the other channels, essentially I
feel like it's become more difficult but it's
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also become more interesting. So I
think, like you said, if you're
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like a sea level person at Microsoft
or these big companies, you'll literally going
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to get two hundred prospects and emails
a day. But your I still preach
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email but, like I was saying
earlier, your messaging needs to be really
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good. So if you automate,
you got to have a highly segregated list
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or if you're personalizing, you've got
to really look into their linkedin profile and
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their company in order to stand out, because there's just so much noise on
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email now. Like you know,
I'm a founder of a small company and
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I still get like a hundred emails
a day. So I'm sure like big
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companies are getting thousands. So email
can still work, but you've got to
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have really, really good messaging in
order for it to work. So those,
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okay, the two find things that
I've seen this year. Yeah,
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that's very useful, and then kind
of send the same so be I'm glad
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we are under Sam ware Vlenc Yester, that that's fund off full. Well,
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look, make all as I said, probably a lot of food for
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sorts and thanks for sharing your insight
today. I'd like to probably have another
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session with you because I''ve got a
thousand more question but unfortunately we Gett into
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the time a location. We don't
want to keep our session too long because
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we want people to be on gage
of our short piot of time versues.
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Sir, getting on into a long
conversation. So we probably will probably do
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another session, but if anyone wants
to connect with you may call discuss some
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of the ads that you you present
it today, are more importantly, would
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like to engage with cross Jenny to
set up their own personalized archie touch on
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Nich channel out bound self scaddens.
Yeah, that would be the best way
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to get hold of your Ma Col
yeah, of course. So very active
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on linked en. So you search
Michael Hanson Growth Jennie on linkedin connect with
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me that. I'm one of those
people. I tend to connect with with
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everyone. So feel free to con
out with me and yeah, feel free
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to send me an email as well. So it's M Hanson at Growth Juniecom,
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notcom everyone makes that mistake. I
couldn't get actually docom unfortunately, but
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yeah, email or linkedin and probably
the two best ways. That's from the
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full. Well, thanks again for
your time today. May Call. It
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was an absolute pleasure to have on
the show. Likewise, Ryan the other
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forward to continue in the conversation you've
been listening to be to be read Neue
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acceleration. To ensure that you never
miss an episode, subscribe to the show
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in your favorite podcast player. Thank
you so much for listening. Until next
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time,
